Forgiveness Ep. 12

“In order to heal the first thing we must do is forgive.... and sometimes the person we must forgive is ourselves.”-Mila Bron-
In this episode we realize forgiving ourselves is a huge part of the healing process after giving up Alcohol. How do we forgive ourselves for things we said or did as a result of drinking? The shame and guilt associated with that can be debilitating in our ability to move forward.  We explore different exercises to try that will help release us from these feeling and ultimately lead us to forgiving ourselves.

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**Disclaimer: The opinions expressed in this episode are not professional or medical opinions. If you are struggling with an addiction please contact a medical professional for help.

Recommended Reading:
What Happened to You, Oprah
The High Five Habit, Mel Robins
The Body Keeps the Score: Brain, Mind, and Body in the Healing of Trauma, Bessel van der Kolk M.D.

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**Disclaimer: The opinions expressed in this episode are not professional or medical opinions. If you are struggling with an addiction please contact a medical professional for help.

Music provided by Premium Beats: https://www.premiumbeat.com
Song: Rise and Thrive
Artist: Young Presidents

Resources:
Wellness Togethe...

Transcript

[00:00:00] Kelly: Welcome to the laugh life podcast, a lifestyle podcast based on living alcohol free and a booze-soaked world. My name is Kelly Evans and together with my friends, Tracey, Djordjevic, Mike Sutton and Lindsay Harik. We share uncensored. Unscripted real conversations about what our lives have been like since we ditched alcohol and how we got here by sharing our individual stories.

[00:00:26] Kelly: We'll show you that there isn't just one way to do this, no matter where you are on your journey from sober, curious to years in recovery and everyone in between, you are welcome here, no judgment and a ton of support. 

[00:00:42] Kelly: Hey everybody. And welcome to the laugh life podcast. Episode 12. Our topic tonight is forgiveness. Hi guys. 

[00:00:51] Lindsey: Hey, hello. 

[00:00:53] Kelly: Hey now. All right. So, this is, I think for anybody that's struggled with any sort of alcohol abuse or addiction or anything along those lines, forgiveness has had to have come up at some point in the healing journey. So tonight, we're going to talk openly about how that's come up for each of us. So, trace what comes to mind when we talk about forgiveness, 

[00:01:23] Tracey: I would definitely say struggling the most to forgive myself for some of the poor decisions I made when I was drinking. I know for sure there are decisions I made when I was drinking that I would have never made sober. And those things haunt me. Sometimes there's been a lot of things I've been able to let go of, but the memories of me drinking that tend to pop in my head are those ones that were the things that I made really bad choices for myself. And. That kind of give me that negative self-talk back. It's hard to, I find, get past that. That's something I'm still definitely working on, 

[00:02:06] Kelly: right? Yeah. That's really good. How about you, Lindsay? 

[00:02:09] Lindsey: Oh, geez. Totally the same. In my early twenties, I had done something completely out of character for me in a relationship. And to this day I still think about it, and it was not good. I've had to forgive myself for it. And it was all fueled by alcohol and it's something I would never do a sober there's no way. And here's the thing. A lot of people say, well, if you did it drunk, you wanted to do it when you were sober. And it's like, not really did I want to wake up in a wheelbarrow when I was sober, I was like, don't give me, that's crazy. Believe that kind of crap too. If you said it while you were drunk, you, you really mean it and it's inside your heart. Or if you did that while you were drunk. You wanted to do it. And it's like, well, I don't know, drinking, your inhibitions are lowered. Maybe it's something you wanted to do. And you've got your regulatory system. Like somebody cuts me off in traffic and I want to cut them off and have them smashed into the back of me. That thought crosses my mind, but do I, do it? No, because I think about the consequences in my head. Or it's just not something that I would do, even though I feel like doing it, or driving, like I'm going to kill this person or, what'd you do it. Probably not. You know, so yeah. 

[00:03:34] Kelly: like, we don't think about consequences when we're

[00:03:37] Tracey: I was going to say, yeah, 

[00:03:39] Lindsey: your blackouts you don't, you don't. I mean, tell me what happens because I don't know, 

[00:03:45] Tracey: you hit the nail on the head with the consequences. That's the thing you don't think about the consequences when you're drunk. Not at all. You're not thinking about 

[00:03:53] Kelly: staying up, like even continuing to drink. Like I never had an off switch, so like, I would never think of the consequences of like having to get up with my kids or having to get up and get on an airplane. No, I drink until, four in the morning. Yeah. 

[00:04:07] Tracey: Or how you were going to feel from all that lack of sleep and, 

[00:04:10] Kelly: oh, you don't even think about that. It's like party time. Yeah. 

[00:04:14] Lindsey: So, I definitely, for me, forgiveness and alcohol, it's more for me about self forgiveness. Like I know who I am, and I wasn't in a good place. And, yeah, just working to, with the mindset, like everybody does make mistakes. Everybody has a past, everyone has done things or said things that they regret, but you learn, you grow and you, move on. But did I quit drinking after that? No. Right. 10 years later I'm still drinking a wine and, 

[00:04:49] Tracey: bad decisions, 

[00:04:50] Lindsey: making bad decisions and breaking collarbones, 

[00:04:53] Kelly: right? Yeah. Yeah. Mike forgiveness. 

[00:04:58] Mike: Where to start. I think we all would agree that it starts with self as Trac Lindsay had mentioned. I think that the more that time has gone on and since I stopped drinking, it allows me to reflect on old Mike I don't really want to say old Mike, but old habits. And I kind of laugh at them. Now, if they call it cow, did you really use to do that? You know, like that you really used to spend the amount of money I spent going out to the bar and then I would think about boy, if I didn't spend all that money, maybe I would be. That much closer to mortgage-free all these things that creep into one's head and I'm sure everybody else has similar types of thoughts. But at the end of the day, I don't think that I could sit here and honestly say that I would trade those experiences because they've kind of shaped who I am now. In connection to forgiveness, it'd be more about patting myself on the back and then for the successful work that I've been able to accomplish that for sure is something that I definitely struggled with and do at times still I've always been really hard on myself. You know that self-talk has always been. About some on worthiness build around low self esteem within which fuels to, well, there's one way to get rid of that. Let's go to the bar and plastered I think once you decide to make a change Rome wasn't built a day and it takes time and you can't, so much as give up and, and get frustrated Hey, you may, stop for a month. You may stop for two months and think I'm going to try and go out and have a drink and see what happens. And it pushes you to the next level of say, you know what, this isn't really what it's all cracked up to be. And I think for me, that's how I got to the point of giving up quitting in saying, I'm done with this. You know, I think I had moments of two weeks, three weeks, then you, we circle back and then you get into that mode of ah man and you, you cave, you failed why so that all circles to forgiveness in some capacity, I think to say you got here for a certain reason, and it just took a certain amount of time until you finally, decided enough was enough. And I just don't know that forgiveness is the complete release of it all. I mean, I think it's a part of it for sure. But like,

[00:07:17] Kelly: it's like the first step. 

[00:07:18] Mike: Yeah, well, yeah, exactly. It's part of the recipe. Right. And the patting on the back for sure is something that, I'm still working on it and me probably it's going to take a while. I mean, that's something that Forgiveness took a while to accept these faults, these mistakes that I made, like Lindsay said, I sure as hell never had the experience of waking up in a wheelbarrow but probably woke up in a few places that would equal a wheelbarrow or worse. 

[00:07:47] Kelly: I feel like I've woken up in worse than

[00:07:52] Mike: Maybe we'll revisit that at another episode. 

[00:07:55] Lindsey: I do not recommend 

[00:07:57] Mike: you don't recommend waking up for sleep. Yeah. I don't know. I think there's a lot to be said about forgiveness for sure. And hopefully we can dive in deeper Kelly about your yeah. 

[00:08:10] Kelly: Well, I love what you said, Mike. It just got me thinking about, when you're not drinking, it gives you that clarity to be able to unpack that stuff and do that. Self-growth like, there was definitely, no, I was doing business growth, things that led to self-growth, but really, you're not going to look at yourself if you're, we feel the shame, you're not forgiving yourself, you're just drinking again. And then there's no room for that. And taking the alcohol out from what I heard you saying, and I can relate to too, Mike, is that it gives you that it gives you the space to do the work and really be honest and look at yourself. But oh yeah, forgiveness has been a huge part for me. I used to do really stupid things. I was the drunk girl in the group, and it was masked by. I felt the shame, but everybody was joking about it. So, I pretended I thought it was funny too, and but deep down I felt shame about it, and I wasn't forgiving myself for any of the embarrassing things I was doing or saying. So yeah, forgiveness for a lot of things is, has come up for me. I wrote a post on Instagram about forgiveness back in January. It's a tiny bit long, but can read it?

[00:09:22] Lindsey: Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:09:23] Kelly: Okay. So, it came to me when I, as you guys know in the listeners know yoga has been the pillar of my sobriety. So, this was me reflecting on when I started my yoga practice. So, about this time four years ago, I got on my yoga mat for the very first time. I was desperate to relieve a 20-year-old back injury that had shown back up due to totally neglecting my body. I was broken, not just physically, but mentally and spiritually, too. I have no idea what called me to this practice. In the past, I would resist anything like this. I was a gym girl, competitive goal oriented, and never thought my anxious busy mind would be able to do anything that calm I had not yet quit drinking, but that was only a few weeks away. I was full of anxiety showing up somewhere new with no idea what I was doing. I remember setting my mat up at the back of the room because I wanted to hide. As soon as I laid on my mat that day, a feeling of belonging came over me. I knew this was exactly where I was supposed to be. This feeling made me cry. My back injury prevented me from doing most of the poses, which was frustrating, but I decided to keep coming back some days I just laid there and learned how to breathe a few, a few classes in still at the back of the room hiding.

[00:10:44] Kelly: I caught a glimpse of myself in the mirror, which I had been avoiding at the front of the room. And I was disgusted. How could I have, let myself get here? I felt so much shame. I reflected after. This was the part I needed to repair first more important than my physical injury. I needed to learn how to forgive myself after that class. I decided to set up at the front. Yep. In front of the mirror, making eye contact with myself was difficult, but that's what I decided to do each day. And then enter class by looking at myself in the mirror and saying, thank you. I love you. Every day. It was uncomfortable. Reflecting back at the past four years. I see now this practice has helped me heal in so many ways. It's taught me so many life lessons and how to be patient with myself. It's helped me reconnect my body, mind and spirit. Most importantly, it's guided me to love and accept myself exactly as I am today.

[00:11:42] Kelly: Not after a goal, not after I lose weight or it can do a certain pose, make more money, find a partner, you get the idea. And I think that's where we get stuck. I'll be happy after I, you fill in the blank, unconditional love and acceptance right now. It's the way back to you. 

[00:12:00] Lindsey: Whoa. We're seeing this post on Facebook. And I think if I remember correctly, it actually brought tears to my eyes when I read it. 

[00:12:11] Kelly: Oh yeah. It's powerful. We think, we think, oh, once I could do this thing, I'm going to be good and I'll be happy with myself, but you just got to start by forgiving yourself to whatever got you to this point. Like maybe, you know, people listening are still drinking or just starting out on their journey. And there's a lot of unpacking to do with all of that. But the first thing to do is just forgive yourself for that was the same thing. That first group meeting I ever attended, I was like, what am I doing here? I couldn't believe I got myself to that place. That's like, you got to forgive yourself. 

[00:12:45] Tracey: That's amazing. Good for you to recognize that and look at yourself in the mirror and really look at yourself and, that took a lot of courage for you to move up to the front of the class and face that. And yeah, I'm. Just over a year into being alcohol free. And I know I still have lots to forgive myself for, to me. That's like an ongoing part of the journey. There's so many other parts of the journey. I feel like I've nailed that part. Not so 

[00:13:17] Kelly: much. It's a process and it's patience. It takes so much patience to, there's no timeline on how long this healing thing takes. And I think, I think it's just ongoing, but you know, 

[00:13:29] Lindsey: I love that you saw the timeline. 

[00:13:32] Kelly: There's no timeline. 

[00:13:33] Lindsey: ' cause before we started recording, we were also tossing around the idea of resentment, resentment, and forgiveness. And I was wondering, what does that even mean? How is resentment even related to alcohol, but you are saying about the timeline almost brings up. Don't compare your healing journey to somebody else's like somebody looking at you on Facebook might say Kelly so far in, I could never do what she's doing, or I did try this and I fell off the wagon and I drank again six times, that person might resent you for doing quote better at the recovery journey thing than they are. That's just a thought that just popped into my head when you said that were really good. Yeah. That's yeah. 

[00:14:21] Tracey: And forgiveness to for people that do fall off the wagon or do like. Oh, go a couple days or think I shouldn't be drinking. So, they don't and then they get out somewhere inside. Oh, I can have a drink, you know?

[00:14:38] Lindsey: And then they have 10, 

[00:14:40] Tracey: you need to learn to forgive yourself for those things to help you get to a point where you will one day make the final decision to not drink again. 

[00:14:49] Kelly: Yeah. 

[00:14:50] Lindsey: Yes. You gotta be really self forgiving. 

[00:14:54] Tracey: Yeah. Very kind to yourself. We say that all the time, it's much easier to say than it is to practice. I actually, I would tell you guys confidently that most people in my life will tell you that I'm actually really good at forgiveness when it comes to other things. I shocked people at how good I am at forgiving people and forgiving things and not holding on to things. 

[00:15:19] Lindsey: What about yourself?

[00:15:20] Kelly: It's just going to say that. Yeah, 

[00:15:21] Tracey: that's what I'm saying, but I don't manage to do that well for myself, 

[00:15:26] Lindsey: with yourself. Why, why is that? Do you think? Cause I think a lot of people are like that they can easily forgive people move on. Or when I'm thinking about myself, when I say I forgive easily because I feel like I am somebody that can do that. Am I just sweeping things under the rug? And considering that forgiveness, 

[00:15:46] Kelly: Humm 

[00:15:49] Mike: what's that 

[00:15:50] Kelly: Mike? 

[00:15:52] Mike: That's why we need each other. We do. Sorry. 

[00:15:55] Mike: No. I mean like 

[00:15:59] Lindsey: easily 

[00:15:59] Mike: forgive others easily, but not yourself and us. Yeah. I'm kind of being smart ass, but I think if we delve into the world of horoscope, I would be shocked that that wasn't their trace because. Right. Or, 

[00:16:15] Tracey: yeah. Yeah.

[00:16:20] Mike: But I know, I know a little bit about that. 

[00:16:23] Tracey: Sometimes you can't dispute the traits 

[00:16:25] Mike: who you are. Yeah, well, and I think women more focused on horoscope type stuff than men that's. 

[00:16:35] Kelly: Yeah, for sure. Men just don't want to admit it. I think getting back to forgiveness, I think that there's been, or I know that there's been situations where, you know, I've thought back and some past traumas and things like that and having to forgive myself for being in situations that I didn't know any better. Like I did the best I could at the time in certain situations and just having to forgive myself, they're I don't know how much I want to say about my marriage, but yeah, if I wasn't drinking, I don't think I. Stayed in my marriage for as long as I did. So, I've had to forgive myself for that too. 

[00:17:19] Lindsey: I feel the same, actually, Kel I didn't really put that together until you just said that I definitely wouldn't have stayed in my marriage as long as I did, if I wasn't drinking. 

[00:17:32] Kelly: Yeah. I didn't see it. I didn't see it. And it was not a bad marriage. It was a friendship really. And you know, when you get that clarity and you take the alcohol out, it's like, whoa. Yeah. 

[00:17:45] Tracey: Well, I don't think that's bad to say that's just the truth, right? The reality that you realize after the fact I would agree with you girls too, and my own relationship. The reality is, is when you're drinking, you're not seeing things clearly. And you're also not really dealing with anything that's in the present moment. 

[00:18:03] Kelly: Right? 

[00:18:05] Lindsey: Kel I have a question for you about just because you were just talking about your marriage, remind me you quit drinking while you were still married, right?

[00:18:16] Kelly: Yes. My first year of sobriety, I was still married. 

[00:18:19] Lindsey: Okay. So let me ask you this. When you do something like quitting drinking or any self-improvement thing, did you have the. The opinion or did you start to feel like, hey, I'm doing this to self-improve myself. What the hell are you doing?

[00:18:39] Lindsey: Like 

[00:18:39] Kelly: he did. He changed. He didn't quit drinking. He did. He changed a lot too. Yeah. Okay, good. Yeah. 

[00:18:45] Lindsey: Because I feel like that when a partner in a relationship changes and makes a positive change, I feel like maybe some resentment can happen. Like I'm doing this to better myself and what the hell are you doing? You're still the same person in the same habits as I'm working to improve. 

[00:19:03] Kelly: Okay. So, I'll tell you a story and I don't think I've told this on the podcast before. I know I've told this story before, but I've told the story that we were in Hawaii, I was 60 days sober, and we climbed to the top of diamond head and, it was physically grueling and got to the bottom, went to the top. Beautiful, beautiful, got to the bottom. And I was so grateful to be doing that because normally I may have skipped that because I was hung over or over in bed or at the bar drinking. So, I just got that really like powerful feeling of like, oh my God, I've been to all of these places, traveled to all of these place’s drinking, what have I missed? Because it was such a beautiful experience. And I just, started crying and he, I said, don't do this for me. And he said, I'm not we needed to change. And you just were the first one to do it. 

[00:19:56] Lindsey: Oh, my goodness

[00:19:58] Kelly: really? Yeah. Yeah. But I did have that feeling, Lindsay. I was like, is he doing this for me? I wanted to make sure that no, he is not quit drinking, but he has definitely changed. 

[00:20:08] Tracey: You got to be on the same page in a partnership to try to repair anything. Right. So that was a big problem in my relationship and why it ended because there wasn't two people in that relationship trying to make it work or willing to do the things that it would have taken to make it work. And it takes two people. Right. And resentment can work the other way. Somebody can resent you because you're improving yourself. 

[00:20:34] Kelly: Okay. Oh yes. 

[00:20:35] Lindsey: That's exactly it. Right. The other person can resent you because you're now, what do you think you're better than me? You know, 

[00:20:42] Kelly: I have experienced that. Yes. 

[00:20:46] Lindsey: You're like, no, I'm not better than you. I'm just better than the drunk version of me. Exactly. That's what I want to work on. Yeah. I have known, I

[00:20:56] Kelly: have a lot of experience with that. You know, people being uncomfortable because I do not live a normal life. I'm pretty free and do things that other people don't do. And for people that they're kind of stuck and just following what the rules are, it makes those people uncomfortable. And that's not my intention. Right. And I don't know, I don't, I don't want to know 

[00:21:26] Mike: it's a good point because if we think about what's the quote unquote, well, it's not normal to do this, or it's not normal to do that. Or it's normal to do this. Is there a connection to that in regard to alcohol and how it's part of society and, it's normal to go out on a Friday night and hanging out with all your friends and get drunk and not have not have any regret, but yet when we're by ourselves or at least what the theme seems to be all the time? When we talk about this, when we're by ourselves, it's regret. I hate that I did that. Or, and then this leads to tonight's topic of forgiveness, right? I mean, it all comes full circle, in the end, I think we do things because we're, growing as individuals through life. I think if we sat here and asked 90-year old’s that are still alive, so. Have you forgiven yourself for things you did when you were 30 and 40 hell ya they figured it out at a certain point in time and some people may never figure it out? 

[00:22:22] Kelly: Yeah. Well, like you said, Mike, when you were talking, I don't think I mentioned this, but I wrote it down. It's an experience that you can learn from,

[00:22:30] Mike: for sure. Everything's an experience. 

[00:22:32] Kelly: Everything can be a lesson. If you let it be 

[00:22:35] Mike: a hundred thousand billion cotillion percent. And that takes, awareness. That takes guts to accept. I know lots of people that point fingers and blame others for decisions and things that have happened in their life and et cetera, et cetera, when really, it's like, well, no, what I've learned is is that. That needed to happen in some capacities to wake you up to the next thing, I haven't talked much about my marriage on here a little bit, but I'll say that, I definitely would not have wanted to be married to me as that person. I think alcohol was a contributor to the way in the person. I was what, there was a lot of unhappiness inside from, things I'd never dealt with as a young guy. I brought that to the relationship, and it was, unfair to her and to more importantly to myself, more, more than anything, because if I'm not fair to myself, then how can I be fair to anybody else? So, honestly, I had to forgive myself for that because. There was a certain point in time after my marriage had ended that I can't remember verbatim, but I, you know, we had reconnected for some reason. And I apologized to say, oh, I'm sorry for the way that I person I was. And she definitely accepted my apology, but she was like, it's okay. She had moved on and I was grateful that she had moved on and, doing her own thing. But I had a really, really hard time at accepting that that's who I was. And I can't take it back. I can't change who I was. And there's no sense on going back and reliving it, but using it as a guide to, not do those things again, if I go down the path of another relationship, that's what I take from it all. I'm grateful that. We got a lot of great times, like, I'm sure you all did in your previous relationships. I can't, you definitely probably had some good times or else you wouldn't have been in the brother ship as long as you were. Yeah. That's what life is experience and we're here learning and one of the things that's forgiveness, so, 

[00:24:34] Kelly: yeah.

[00:24:35] Lindsey: But what does that look like? As I, as everybody was talking, I'm like, okay, when you forgive yourself, what does that look like? What do you do to forgive yourself? Do you write everything down? I know one thing that I did. it was actually really hard. And I think there were so many tears on the paper. I wrote everything down, almost in a letter to the person. I never gave it to them, but, and then I just tore it up, torn it up after and threw it in the garbage and was like, 

[00:25:04] Mike: yep. Release. Yeah, release. Good. That's it. That's the word. 

[00:25:09] Lindsey: So self-forgiveness comes with, it's something you do that there's a release.

[00:25:13] Lindsey: Yes. 

[00:25:14] Tracey: I'm listening to you guys on this because I need these pointers. 

[00:25:17] Kelly: Ah, that's so good. Trace. What else? What else? 

[00:25:22] Mike: I think it's suppressed in the brain, in the subconscious that, it's there and it's like, okay, here it comes. And like what you're saying, listen, I have a mentor that I speak to, and it's always about. Write it down, write it down, get it out now in relation to business, in relation to personal like journal. And I have, I can't fucking write about sure. I'm not a journaled, but the more I think about it when I take a little bit of time and I have to baby step into this, it bloody while Hope's there while it helps, because it allows you to sit there, get it on paper. Instead of living in this fast-paced world of text, text, text, Facebook, blah, blah, blah, blah, all these things where you quickly, I've got to respond and. Maybe we're having that same type of approach with forgiveness, and we want it to be, oh, I hate the way this feels okay. I forgive myself though. Can you stop? Can you stop mattering at me? Right? Like

[00:26:21] Lindsey: Kelly's going to explode. '

[00:26:23] Kelly: because I don't want to forget. I think the most important thing you said there, Mike was that you sit there, so you sit with it, you sit with it, you sit with it, you sit with it and then write it down and get, 

[00:26:36] Tracey: yeah, that's what I got out of that, because we talked about sitting with it when we were talking about anxiety and that is just what I pulled out of what Mike was saying. I just had a light bulb moment in my head that you just have to, I think it's the same as when you're having anxiety. You just have to sit with it and basically. Wait till it passes almost. 

[00:27:02] Kelly: Yes, no, not almost. Yes. That is, it. It will pass everything passes. And we live in this society where any emotion or feeling that's considered negative, you've got to make it go away right away by drinking or numbing or scrolling or whatever. It's like, no, we have to sit with it. We're meant to feel everything and deal with it. And like Tracey just said, everything passes. Like I had such a fear when I started going to my addiction’s therapist, I knew I had to look at some past traumas and I had such a fear of that. It's such a fear of feeling sad, even like the feeling of sadness terrified me, but she explained to me, you heal the trauma by talking about it. I think I had this fear that if I started to talk about it, I would be sad for the rest of my life. But it's healed. It passes through you like Tracey just said it passes, it all passes. Everything is temporary. 

[00:28:01] Lindsey: The only way for it to pass is for you to talk about it though, because secrets, all these little shames filled moments that we sweep under the rug and stuffed down, and don't discuss when you keep those things, secret secrets have the most power in the. So, when you bring these things out to the light, which is how they are released. And you'll be surprised if you're like, I did this. I said, this, somebody that, you know, really close to you is probably going to be like, oh my God, me too. 

[00:28:33] Kelly: Yeah. And it manifests in your body as that can manifest as disease. 

[00:28:39] Lindsey: Yes.

[00:28:39] Lindsey: High blood pressure, high cholesterol. This is proven diabetes, pain, neck pain, back pain, shoulder pain, knee pain. This is stress holding all this in its energy. And this is affecting your body. 

[00:28:53] Kelly: Did we talk about this book called the body keeps score. That's what that book is about. And I've only read like a teeny tiny bit of it. Cause I was like, oh my God, like ready to across the room, sitting in my living room with my piles of books. I'm like, okay, I will pick it up again one day, but it was so powerful. Just a little bit that I read, but that's what it's about. It's about how, if we don't heal this stuff, it manifests in our body and it's not good. 

[00:29:19] Mike: Where's that book about scoring. Say about donuts because I've got a problem right now. 

[00:29:25] Kelly: I don't care. It's not about food, Mike 

[00:29:28] Lindsey: your pants keep score 

[00:29:30] Tracey: that one's your brain on food, Mike. And that's next read. 

[00:29:35] Tracey: I said 

[00:29:35] Kelly: that makes him dryer's broken, 

[00:29:38] Lindsey: shrinking all his

[00:29:39] Kelly: I'm a good friend. It's not that 

[00:29:42] Tracey: you are a good friend, Mike, you can forgive yourself for. Donut you're eating 

[00:29:50] Kelly: oh my gosh. That's a whole other thing too. When we talk about food and exercise, you got to forgive yourself. I hear people talk about; I have to go to the gym because I ate pizza last night. That's not what exercises for you exercise because you love yourself not to punish yourself 

[00:30:08] Lindsey: and let's stop making food, bad pizza. Let's stop putting labels on food, like donuts or bad. You don't want to be eating donuts 24 7, but if you have one or two with a coffee or something, don't beat yourself up for it. 

[00:30:22] Kelly: Mike's you do not okay right now. 

[00:30:25] Tracey: Well, don't beat yourself up for the extra 10 pounds you might have on right now, too. 

[00:30:30] Mike: Wow. Is that all it looks like it's 10. You guys are the bad, 

[00:30:36] Lindsey: but yeah, we gotta stop. Labeling food is good and bad, and you know, Yeah, I have to exercise. No, you get to, because you have a moving functional body with working limbs and arms and hands, and your eyes work and your ears work, and you get to move. You have to take care of the temple that you're living in. Oh, you have to, you really do because you only get one. It sucks. You get one. And these are things that you can control, right. And a lot of people,

[00:31:12] Tracey: but how much were you not taking care of your temple when you're drinking, 

[00:31:16] Kelly: man? Not at all. It was like not a temper. I was like a carnival 

[00:31:22] Lindsey was a freaking nightclub.

[00:31:32] Kelly: more cheese, more cheese, less sleep. 

[00:31:37] Lindsey: Oh, that's not good.

[00:31:39] Kelly: Pop in the Aleve. Chugging the Pepto. 

[00:31:44] Mike: That's a good one. 

[00:31:45] Kelly: Oh my God. Yeah. I live for that shit.

[00:31:48] Lindsey: I think, yeah. Forgiveness now is like making a change, changing those habits, changing those things. 

[00:31:54] Kelly: Right. You know, like 

[00:31:57] Tracey: I think it's directly related to the same cycle too. Right. What you were saying their Linds about. Basically, to me shame is almost like secrets, right? 

[00:32:09] Lindsey: It is 

[00:32:10] Lindsey: Shame is the 

[00:32:12] Tracey: secrets that's, what's keeping you in a shame cycle is the things that, you know, inside your own head that you haven't told anybody else, because you're ashamed. So, when you were saying that I was thinking that, yeah, you're right. It's that shame that has to come out, which then can lead to forgiveness. Otherwise, you're just stuck in that same shame cycle. 

[00:32:36] Mike: Well, it's also about what do you say shame it's also about, I think your mind's telling you that your mind's already created a story that hasn't even bloody well happened. It's if I tell somebody this, well, this is, and you don't know it. So. That's the circle around fear as we, very well know. And a lot of this thing is stemmed around for you. I think if I was able to really go to a cabin for a week and write down, where was I at while I was drinking mentally and why I was hiding things. Yeah. It was so many different things. It was just one thing. It was a lot of different things. And I would have created these stories that weren't true. They just weren't true. The mind loves playing these damn games. And I think part of what we're trying to do as a group is to yeah. Where we share our stories about why our lives are better by not drinking and the things that we've been able to accomplish.

[00:33:34] Mike: But we're also here to help people understand that not drinking contributes to other positive things in your life. Like Kelly said, focus on better eating and focusing 

[00:33:42] Kelly: on relationships, 

[00:33:44] Mike: everything it's all hold on. I'm kind of losing my train of thought here, but I just get so caught up in the whole just trust life and trust that all those experiences have brought you to the point where you're at. You're not feeling these things for no reason, forgiving yourself for the things that happened in the past. That's a part of it, for sure. But also like you, guys have said releasing it, getting it out, writing it down, sharing it with somebody. It's all part of it. I mean, it's not just, we could have come on here. Let's be honest. When I came out here each said, you know our piece about how we forgiven ourselves. Well, that was a great show. That was 12 minutes. But at the end of the day, we've talked about this for, you know, close to an hour about all these different things, right? So. It's not just one thing. There's a lot of things that revolve around this. And I think it starts with definitely forgiving yourself, but at least trying to say, look, it's okay to talk about something that happened. It's not going to be the end of the world. You'll get through it. Like the anxiety you got to sit with it. It's like the anxiety is like to me, exercise, I am freaking hate exercising. I like donuts. You know, I shouldn't eat donuts, but when I exercise that whole mind is quit, quit, quit, quit. No, I gotta sit with it. I gotta sit with it a little bit more, a little bit more, a little bit more to build up the strength. It's the same kind of analogy. Forgiving yourself and getting it out, it's sucks. It does suck, but it gets a hell of a lot better. The more you practice it just like your life did when you drank one drink led to two, hey, the night's getting better and better. And I can, I can do, I can conquer the world really. Right. Am I wrong? Or am I on the right track?

[00:35:23] Lindsey: I've tried this. I don't know if any of you guys have tried this. And I can't even remember where I heard this, but it's an exercise where you either look at a picture of yourself when you were really little. And this always when I might even cry when I talk about this because there's definitely something there for me. But if you're wondering maybe where to start with forgiveness, maybe just give this a try, find a picture of yourself when you were really little, like two, three, even a baby, or I don't know. Try to listen to that inner voice and what age, picture to find, or just visualize yourself now, walking towards the little kid version of you and giving yourself a big hug. Every single time I do this, I end up bawling, and it's like, it's okay. 

[00:36:11] Mike: No, 

[00:36:12] Lindsey: no. And it's like, even 

[00:36:13] Kelly: going with that, Lindsey, that power, 

[00:36:16] Lindsey: think about the things that you would say to your little kid's self, like you're going to be okay. You're going to get through this, this is going to happen, but I promise you everything's going to be okay. Every time I just end up bawling, but maybe that could spark something for somebody who's trying to work on self forgiveness. 

[00:36:33] Kelly: Yeah. You're giving your inner child what she needed. Yeah, because you can go back and heal that, and I've done some of that, but I know there's way more to do. I find it really emotionally draining too. I need to have the mental capacity to do that. Cause I think there's a lot there, but that is powerful. And I've done that with the picture too. And there's some also we mentioned, I think it was on the last episode, the apps, like the meditation apps, there are some guided visual exercises and meditations that you can do around healing, your inner child. And they're really good too. And yeah, I also ball every time Linds

[00:37:10] Kelly: I think Oprah 

[00:37:11] Tracey: has a whole book on that. That's 

[00:37:13] Kelly: what happened to me. I'm 

[00:37:14] Lindsey: listening to it right now. Okay. 

[00:37:18] Tracey: Well, there you go. Linds yeah. 

[00:37:20] Mike: Hey Lindsey what about the fact that when you do that, that's a form of forgiveness in the sense of it's therapeutic in the whole training, not training, but maybe like. It's an exercise in nature. It's an exciting, yeah. Going deeper, right? Bravo, Bravo for you now. I don't cry. So, I don't know how that happened. 

[00:37:44] Kelly: Oh, now I have a goal in life to make Mike 

[00:37:48] Kelly: cry good luck. 

[00:37:54] Mike: All those tears were shed long ago. Now 

[00:37:59] Kelly: I think another thing, speaking of that and forgiveness is forgiving our parents for not giving us, for not giving, they're not giving us everything we needed when we were little. And that's where that all of that inner child work comes in is, is forgiving our parents. They were doing their best, right. Hopefully in most cases, 

[00:38:22] Mike: Their best with what they knew for sure 

[00:38:25] Lindsey: they had what they had to work with

[00:38:30] Lindsey: or what they weren't like. My mom's mom died when she was 16. I've talked with her about that, really briefly, but she was literally left because her dad was an alcoholic and she was like, that was the end of her childhood. She's an adult now. And has to do everything, including work, to support the house, everything.

[00:38:53] Kelly: Yeah. Yeah. I think we can have a lot of, like we mentioned resentment, I think we could have a lot of resentment around childhood too, that 

[00:39:00] Lindsey: maybe that can cause people to drink because they don't know what all these things are that they're dealing with. And then they're like, well, Here's the drinking.

[00:39:09] Lindsey: I don't want to feel that that go away for awhile. Yeah. 

[00:39:13] Kelly: And forgiveness doesn't always mean you have to talk to that person. Like Lindsey said, writing a letter or talking to a friend about it. I think the writing is super powerful also, writing it down. But yeah, forgiveness doesn't always mean you need to have that interaction with the other person in order to forgive them 

[00:39:30] Mike: really good point. Very good point. 

[00:39:32] Tracey: I think if you find someone that you trust that you know is not going to judge you and loves you unconditionally, that you can talk to about some of those things that are not good. I also think that forgiveness is directly related to self-awareness. A lot of the stuff we're talking about is related to being self-aware and not everybody is self-aware. And I wanted to kind of go back to something you were talking about Kel because I don't know people that aren't, so self-aware how did they become self-aware and Mike, maybe you can speak to this too, because I think during your journey, like the Mike I knew before, I wouldn't say was, as self-aware, obviously, as you are now Kelly, you were saying how you had a really hard time facing some of your traumas because you were so scared, like you were so fearful of dealing with them. So do you feel like, is that what blocks people from being self-aware having fears. 

[00:40:34] Kelly: Well, yeah, I think for me, I had to reach out to a professional. I have some amazing girlfriends and sisters, but I needed the help of a professional to help unpack that. And I guess that does lead to self-awareness. I never connected the two, but it was like, I didn't understand myself, and that's what I needed her help with. And thankfully I found an amazing therapist and I do think that in, in lots of ways, I'm a huge advocate for therapy. For not even talking about alcohol, you know, like I think therapy is a massively helpful for people to work through any part of their life, whether it's their past or their current relationships or whatever, you don't have to hit rock bottom to go into therapy.

[00:41:19] Tracey: Well, maybe mike would say the same because he went to therapy too. 

[00:41:23] Mike: Oh, God, 

[00:41:24] Tracey: Do you think that's the moment you became self-aware or more self-aware? 

[00:41:29] Mike: I think honestly, I had, ironically enough, I think I had to be a little bit somewhat self-aware to admit that I needed to go to therapy, but when my marriage ended, there was a lot going on in my life. My dad died and my marriage had ended, and I was like, why the hell is this happening? What the hell is going on here? All about why me? Why me? Why me? And it was all right, man. You can't do it anymore. Like you've tried to do by yourself, all of these that you just can't and you, you need to get help. And then when I started to go to the guy I went to, I didn't like the guy at all. I thought he was a Dick, but I honestly. This guy was, after four years, this guy was the greatest thing that ever happened to me. He was an amazing, he was like my personal trainer for my mental awareness.

[00:42:20] Mike: Even after four years, I still wasn't. I mean, I'm still doing things. He never said, hey, you got to quit drinking, never was that ever brought up. It was always about these things that I was dealing with. 

[00:42:34] Kelly: But were you honest about how much you were drinking? Sorry to interrupt. 

[00:42:37] Mike: All the one thing that I will be honest with you guys about, I don't know that I ever was with him. I missed one session and the reason I missed it was because I went on and got absolutely plastered the night before. And I woke up I called and left a voicemail and I lied, and I hate lying. Listen, it's I can't stand it. I, I hated myself. And then I went to the next session, and I started off and I was talking, and he goes, I was talking to her about three and four minutes and he goes, he kind of puts his hand up and he goes, are we going to talk about why you weren't here last week? And I was like, oh, well like that. Well, no, like you need to tell me more. Like, it's not just, and holy shit. I was like, oh fuck, what do I say? What do I do? 

[00:43:21] Lindsey: What did you do? What did you do? 

[00:43:24] Mike: I stuck with the story, and I would've done the same thing. I would that look I'm being honest. 

[00:43:32] Mike: I'm being honest right now.

[00:43:33] Mike: And I wouldn't have been that back then because it was all about ego and saying, I can't let this guy call me out. I've got this, facade I'm putting on and I'm putting the work in and I'm coming to see you every week. Fuck you. But yeah. And I'm sorry, I don't mean to swear, but it's, it's just who I am.

[00:43:53] Tracey: Well, you just released it, Mike 

[00:43:54] Kelly: you just really amazing. 

[00:43:57] Mike: No, but that guy, honestly, I reached out to him when something pretty big in my life happened a few years ago because I didn't really know how to deal with it. And he said, well, you know, I don't really do kind of like a follow-up if you will, like, you've got the skills now and he challenged me, and I figured it out. I literally figured it out. It helped me say I can do this. I think it was probably a really good thing that he did that, so, and, as a guy, I can't talk about a lot of things with my buddies. I don't think a lot of men have. Relationships that women have where, you can confide in, a friend and get that thing that you want. That is no judgment of ear. Men don't do that shit. Your men do. Let's go to the fucking bar and let's do it over a beer or 10. And I can't tell you how many times I did that when really what I wanted was I just need to talk to somebody and listen, I'll offer it. I'll listen to anybody. I'll talk to anybody that if it helps somebody and somebody is out there listening, and you want to talk, I'll listen to you. I'm here to help I'll share anything. Anything you want to ask me? I'll tell you I got nothing to hide anymore. Cause everything I, everything I had was horrible. Like hold it, it, I mean, 

[00:45:17] Lindsey: When you were talking about Mike, I didn't mean to interrupt you, but when you were saying men let's talk about it over a beer. I mean, women do that too, I think men do it, maybe. I don't know why. I think they do it more so, but I don't know. I would have like a difficult situation or something, and it's like, let's talk about it. But there's alcohol involved because I think what the alcohol does is it lowers your inhibitions and then you get to start talking more and you wouldn't normally talk that way if you weren't sober, but we've kind of learned how to be like that without a substance.

[00:45:54] Lindsey: you know like. Like, why do we have to meet at the bar to have a beer and hash it out? Why do we have to numb ourselves in our brains?

[00:46:02] Kelly: Or why do you have to bring over a bottle of wine to talk about it? 

[00:46:05] Lindsey: or, yeah, I don't know. That was just a thought. Yeah, 

[00:46:09] Mike: no, it's a really good point. Cause it's the truth, , alcoholic, 

[00:46:14] Lindsey: it's scary. It's scary to talk about difficult things and feelings, but if you put alcohol in there, it somehow makes it easier. Right? 

[00:46:22] Tracey: Well, it's that liquid courage. That's why they call it that. Not only does it give you the courage and that's also why Linds I think they say that, the things you say when you're drunk is the truth, because they relate it with having liquid courage. So now you're telling the truth, but I agree. I don't think that's true at all. That that's truly how you feel in the moment. I think that you're not thinking about any consequences. You're not thinking with a rational mind. So how could that really be true? What you're saying? Ooh. God, I know I've said so many things when I've been drinking, I regretted and that I absolutely did not mean. And if I was sober, I would find much better ways, more effective ways of saying it, or I might not even feel that in the moment so, but yeah, 

[00:47:13] Lindsey: that's really good stuff. 

[00:47:15] Tracey: So, what do we want to tell people to do, to help themselves to forgive themselves? We brought up the picture idea, which was great. The picture of you and your childhood. We brought up the writing things down and maybe throwing them out or burning them any other good ideas. 

[00:47:35] Kelly: I think just knowing that it's temporary, that was a big thing for me. Knowing that it's going to pass, you're going to feel those feelings and feel the sadness or anger or resentment, but it is going to pass. You're going to release it. I loved that release. 

[00:47:50] Tracey: I like that too. That's going to be my new mantra. 

[00:47:54] Kelly: Release yeah 

[00:47:56] Kelly: bless 

[00:47:56] Lindsey: and release. I have a couple affirmations that I think might be helpful. I've got six of them that I wrote down here. So if you want to write them down, stick them somewhere where you can read them every day or even a notebook that you can start your day with. Number one, forgiveness as a gift, I give myself number two, everyone makes mistakes. Number three, self-compassion encourages me to learn and grow. Number four. I accept myself completely five. Today. I start fresh and six. I forgive myself for the hurt I caused. 

[00:48:34] Tracey: Wow. 

[00:48:37] Lindsey: Thanks. Put those somewhere. You can read them and make up your own. Whatever you want to say to yourself every day to encourage self-forgiveness.

[00:48:46] Kelly: Yeah. I think if anybody's out there listening and they've tried to stop and it didn't work and they, picked up the drink again, forgive yourself for that. And it's okay to try again. And then again, and then again, just keep trying, 

[00:49:00] Tracey: I wanted to put one thing out there that I had heard about that. I haven't tried myself, but I've thought about trying it. So maybe I'm going to put it out there in the universe and then start trying it. And it was something that was started by I'm not really sure what she's called but she's all over social media and you might know her recognize her when I say her name, because you'd see videos of her and she's been on a lot of podcasts and a lot of talk shows and stuff like that. Her name's Mel 

[00:49:29] Kelly: Robin Robbins, Robbins. I knew you were going to say that Robin's 

[00:49:35] Tracey: got a high five technique. She is where she high-fives herself in the mirror. And I'm not saying this is forgiveness but I think this is maybe something that could be used to encourage better. Self-talk goes along the lines of , the forgiving, 

[00:49:50] Lindsey: when you're building up your self esteem and your self worth.

[00:49:55] Lindsey: Right. 

[00:49:56] Tracey: So you guys know that they'd have you tried it? 

[00:49:58] Lindsey: Yup. 

[00:49:59] Tracey: Yeah. Oh, wow. And how do you feel when you do it? Linds

[00:50:03] Lindsey: like an idiot. She does say that, cause I have the book, I'm almost done it, the high five habits. And it's about reprogramming your brain. So when you see yourself in the mirror and you high five yourself, you can't think of anything like you really it's hard. I don't think it's possible because we're so programmed to high five people when things are going well as a congratulations and all that, the book is great, but yeah, you feel like a total idiot doing it for the first, few times. And then afterwards, it's just what you do when you wake up in the morning. 

[00:50:37] Kelly: Kind of like the posts that I read you guys by saying at the end of my practice. Thank you. I love you. It was uncomfortable, but what do you think that does over doing that? You know, for one year or even for a month? 

[00:50:48] Tracey: Yeah, you're just reprogramming your brain too, in a different way basically you're convincing yourself. You love yourself. That's right. 

[00:50:57] Kelly: Yeah. 

[00:50:58] Tracey: That's good. Those are all good. Mike, you got any, 

[00:51:00] Mike: I, 

[00:51:03] Kelly: I, 

[00:51:06] Mike: I don't have anything like that. I'm always about what's between the ears, like I keeps saying, and I'm a broken record when I say this, but it it's, I'm telling you, man, meditation totally helped me after the therapy, we're talking like 12 years now of, getting out of a relationship that wasn't good for either one of us. And then accepting that, you know, that was over and then dealing with the why means of life and drinking and partying and stuff. Getting to that point of, hey, like Kelly said, you got to sit through these things, the anxiety, the panic attacks, the self-doubt, all that crap. It got worse. The more I drank and the more I didn't listen to the little voice says like you tired of this crap. When are you going to try to find the real Mike and I'm still looking for the real Mike there's day to day? It's, you know, maybe I don't need to like donuts, I don't know. I'm just being, trying to be a jackass, but no, 

[00:52:05] Kelly: the meditation, the meditation gives you the space for this stuff to come up. It's the opposite of the drinking. 

[00:52:13] Mike: Yeah. I totally believe it's like a channel for the vibe to hit you and say, all right, like you're putting in the work, we're gonna give you some results, you know?

[00:52:23] Kelly: And it give you another lesson because you are ready. You are ready to learn this next thing. 

[00:52:27] Mike: I'm ready to go to the next level. It's like a video game, as much as I don't play video games, like go to the next level or, and the next level, maybe for a long time, but I don't know. I'll tell you one thing since I quit drinking, I definitely. Just feel better about who I am and what I'm trying to accomplish as a, for my own self before it was all about, well, what are other people gonna think about Mike? Screw them. It's been what Mike feels about Mike 

[00:52:57] Tracey: Well, I'd like to say we're also going to all have a lot less things to forgive ourselves for now that we're not drinking.

[00:53:04] Lindsey: Yes. Tracey 

[00:53:06] Kelly: Good point, 

[00:53:07] Lindsey: Mike, I feel like your things are therapy. So if someone's looking to start their, forgiveness journey with themselves, when I was listening to you talk, I was like, oh yeah, that's a good thing to start is. Try therapy, like get yourself a therapist and go for a couple of sessions. And another thing I heard you say, but not in this way is remove yourself from toxic situations that you're in not necessarily saying that, you were around bad people, but just toxic for you, like remove yourself. 

[00:53:38] Mike: Right. The thing about therapy too, is if one of the things that you're concerned about is the cost, because we all know that therapy money, there are other means my therapy ended up being covered a hundred percent for four years. So, reach out to your doctor and say, there are some things that I need to go to some sort of psychotherapy or some sort. I don't know the right term 

[00:54:03] Kelly: benefits. Your benefits might cover. 

[00:54:05] Mike: No actually it was covered through, through OHIP 

[00:54:08] Kelly: no, I'm just talking about other people like, oh yeah, yeah, yeah. If you have benefits, take a look at what your benefits cover. Cause it might cover that 

[00:54:16] Mike: probably covers a monetary amount. 

[00:54:18] Kelly: Yeah. Yeah. For sure. 

[00:54:21] Mike: Yeah. No, for sure. I think at the end of the day, the do yourself a big favor by starting to forgive yourself, it's work starts and it may not. You could say like you guys have said, look in the mirror, high five, say it over and over again. I forgive myself. I forgive myself, I forgive myself and then you may get three seconds of fuel and bloody good. And then those damn voices come back. but appreciate the fact that you got three seconds a second. That's exactly. It's like it takes. It takes

[00:54:54] Lindsey: you don't go to the gym. If you want to lose weight after one workout and say, well, that didn't work. I didn't lose 10 pounds. No, you keep going back. And those little things compound every day, you make that commitment. And in a year you will see results. It might not be what you expected, but you will be better than you were when you started 

[00:55:16] Mike: a week, two months. You know, I just a little bit it's, 

[00:55:20] Tracey: If you're better today than you were yesterday.

[00:55:22] Lindsey: Exactly. Tracey 

[00:55:24] Kelly: I had somebody say to me, like she told me she was going to book her therapy session and she never did. And she said, I just don't know what to say. You know, like, I don't even know where to start. And I remember with that. Yeah. I remember being terrified just to go and admit why I was there, but these are trained professionals. They know how to talk to you. So don't even worry about it. Just sit down and then they they're there. You know? So don't have any expectations. Just know that, if you're being called to get some extra help outside help, then just make the phone call, make the appointment and show up. That's it.

[00:55:57] Lindsey: It's not your job to know what to say. When you get there, like it's there's to draw it out of you and start those conversations with you. So if you want to start with, I don't know why I'm here. I hate this already. I feel uncomfortable and I don't know what to say. That's a good place. Yeah. That's a good place to start.

[00:56:13] Mike: I'll tell you about, I wanted, this is super funny to me. I went the first time I went and it was more than. I'm Mike, blah, blah, blah, blah. What's your story. So the second time I get in there and I sit down and he's looking at me and I'm kind of sitting there and I'm looking at him and my mind's going like, what the fuck is going on? And I swear to you silence for about three minutes. And I find I'm sweating. I'm like, what is going on right now? And he looks at me and he goes, did we not cover this in the first time around, I go cover wide. He goes, oh, well, you, you come in and you sit down and you just tell me what's on your mind. I, we just, we just talk. And I said, oh, okay. I'm thinking that he's going to have all this list of, we're going to talk about this. Your pulling out what's on your mind and they're helping you pull it out, and I just thought that that was amazing. When I learned that I would go, okay, well, what, what am going to talk about this time? When, the way there for first little bit, I would get nervous. I don't have anything to talk about. 

[00:57:16] Kelly: Yes. I remember that. Yeah. 

[00:57:19] Lindsey: I would almost like put on a show, like, I'm like, wait, no stop acting like, stop trying to be perfect. Like just sit down and like, just be like some jerk cut me off. And I wanted to fucking get like, 

[00:57:32] Kelly: okay, Lindsay, do you need to talk about that? Cause are you on 

[00:57:38] Lindsey: my road? Rage? I promise you I'm all right. I really am. 

[00:57:47] Tracey: I'm laughing at Lindsay being the perfect fucking patient. 

[00:57:53] Lindsey: Oh, I would be like, I gotta, like, I gotta look a certain way when I go in there and I gotta

[00:58:02] Lindsey: do I lie down on the couch? Do I cross my legs? Like what do I do? that's me you guys should come to therapy with me. It'd be like 

[00:58:12] Kelly: near recorded.

[00:58:16] Tracey: Oh, I love you, Lindsey. 

[00:58:18] Kelly: You're funny. So, should we wrap it up? You guys, which was amazing. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you for sharing. So openly, I think that this episode is really gonna help people look at forgiveness maybe in a way they've never even looked at it before. So really good. We appreciate all of our listeners, we just hit a thousand downloads. So, thank you. Thank you. Thank you. We love your feedback. We'd love your messages. We'd love your interaction in our Facebook community. So, reach out any time and we would love to hear your ideas on what topics you want to hear and also interview some other people that are living alcohol free, anybody that wants to come on and share their story here, please reach out and that's it for tonight. So, until next time, keep laughing guys

[00:59:09] Kelly: Bye guys have 

[00:59:11] Tracey: a great night guy. 

[00:59:15] Lindsey: Don't do it. Do not recommend emoji out of five stars. 

[00:59:20] Tracey: We'll put that in the show notes as a disclaimer. Good night. 

[00:59:26] closing

[00:59:26] Kelly: Thank you for listening. Please give us a five-star rating like and subscribe, share on social media and tell your friends. We love getting your feedback and ideas of what you'd like to hear on upcoming episodes of the laugh life podcast. If you yourself are living alcohol free and want to share your story here, please reach out.