Toxic Relationships: How to recognize when we are having them with something or someone. Season 2 Ep. 7

In episode 7 the girls talk all things toxic! How that can include our relationship with substances, romantic partners and even work environments. Popular buzz words around toxic behavior like gaslighting and narcissist. We share some of our own experiences with toxic relationships as well as discuss 14 signs you may be having a toxic relationship. The importance of recognizing these behaviors, acknowledging and then implementing some practices to help you deal with a toxic situation. This episode took some unexpected twists & turns but we found it very enlightening. We all felt some personal growth came out of this one!

Reference Article: Healthline, Is Your Relationship Toxic? What to Look For
https://www.healthline.com/health/toxic-relationship

**Disclaimer: The opinions expressed in this episode are not professional or medical opinions.
If you are struggling with an addiction please contact a medical professional for help.

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Transcript

Toxic Relationships, Recognize, acknowledge then practice. Season 2, Ep. 7

Intro

Kelly: [00:00:00] welcome to the LAF life podcast, a lifestyle podcast based on living alcohol free and a booze-soaked world. My name is Kelly Evans and together with my friends, Tracey, Djordjevic, Mike Sutton and Lindsay Harik. We share uncensored. Unscripted real conversations about what our lives have been like since we ditched alcohol and how we got here by sharing our individual stories.

We'll show you that there isn't just one way to do this, no matter where you are on your journey from sober, curious to years in recovery and everyone in between, you are welcome here, no judgment and a ton of support.

Lindsey: Hey everybody. Welcome back to the LAF Life podcast. We're so happy you are here today. It is episode seven of Season two, and we are talking about toxic relationships. 

Kelly: Ooh, 

Lindsey: hey everybody. 

Kelly: Hi. 

Tracey: Hello. 

Lindsey: So, we're missing [00:01:00] Mike today, but that's okay. We're gonna, tackle this topic and let's see what we can unpack.

Tracey: Another girl's only episode. 

Kelly: Ooh. 

Lindsey: Mm-hmm. Kelly and I are in the same space today, so that's really nice. It's Friday night. Yeah. I was traveling on Wednesday when we usually record. So, thank you guys. 

Tracey: Not our normal recording day. 

Lindsey: Yeah. It's not our normal recording day, 

Tracey: so that's why Mike couldn't make it.

Lindsey: Yeah. So, thanks for being accommodating to that. You guys are awesome. 

Tracey: Yeah, but it's kind of cool that we're recording tonight cuz it's my two-year alcohol-free anniversary. Yeah. And I get to celebrate it with you two. Woo. Which is appropriate, don't you? 

Kelly: Yeah, we're having our tea together. Are you having your fucking Camile? Camomile tea trace? 

Tracey: Oh, tonight. It is not camomile, but it is. What is it? It's licorice and mint. Delicious. 

Lindsey: That sounds like this. Yes. 

Tracey: Good for digestions. 

Kelly: [00:02:00] Congratulations. 

Lindsey: That's amazing. How do you feel? 

Tracey: I feel amazing. I feel like I'm living my best life ever. 

Lindsey: That's so good. I love. 

Tracey: I felt like my life before was just going through the motions and now I feel like I'm truly living.

Kelly: Oh, love it. 

Tracey: I can't believe what I've managed to accomplish in the two years since I've stopped drinking. And those things I know I would've never accomplished if I was still drinking because the drinking was just drowning. My motivation and my drive. yeah, it's made a huge difference.

Kelly: That was so inspiring. 

Lindsey: Mm-hmm. kidding. So, speaking of toxic relationships, I think when we're drinking, one of the biggest toxic relationships we're in is with ourselves because there's a lot of negative self-talk, self-sabotage, all that kind of stuff. 

Tracey: Absolutely. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's so true, Lynn. Not only that, but we are also. End up establishing a toxic relationship with alcohol. 

Lindsey: Right, right. [00:03:00] Oh yeah. Yeah.

Tracey: We've all spoken to the fact that there might be some people out there that have what would be considered a healthy relationship with alcohol. They might have a glass of wine here and there with dinner type of thing. But I think we can all agree our relationships became very unhealthy with alcohol over time. 

Kelly: Yes. 

Tracey: And that's part of the toxicity too.

Kelly: Yeah. I remember towards the end of my drinking career, a moment that is stuck in my mind sitting in the living room in my chair with my first glass of wine of the evening, and, I had to have these specific fancy crystal wine glasses. Mm. But fill them up to the top so I didn't have to get up. Right. Remember that? Yeah. I remember looking at that glass of wine and thinking like, fuck, I hate. Oh, like a person. Oh. Like, it was like a toxic person, but it was this glass of wine. Yeah. And I still picked it up and drank it, but I had that thought before I picked it up. So, I mean, obviously I was getting towards the end. But yeah, it's really, really clear in my [00:04:00] mind how I felt in that moment. 

Lindsey: Do you think that our relationship with alcohol has to get to that point where it's almost a toxic relationship before we make a change? 

Kelly: I don't know. I think listening to other people, I bet a lot of people can relate to that. It's not just the morning hangover, but I think for a lot of people it is that first drink. Being like, Ooh. 

Lindsey: And that's almost like disrespecting yourself, right? 

Kelly: No, it's not almost like that is, well, it is. Percent, 

Lindsey: you're looking at this thing and you're like, I hate you, but down the hatch, right? Yeah. 

Kelly: And that wasn't the only glass I had that night, that's for sure. 

Tracey: Well, I remember, referring to it as like my best friend after I separated, and I was on my own. Yeah. In the sense of referring to it as a person, it was like that companion every evening type of thing when I was on my own, experiencing loneliness and without my child,

Kelly: yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Tracey: So, I can relate to. Hundred percent 

Kelly: I had to go through a grieving process too. It was [00:05:00] probably around 8, 10, 10 to 15 with no alcohol and posting in a Facebook support group, hey guys, is grief a thing? Cause I, you know, like I just, I was like, what is happening to me? They all commented and yeah, it is, cuz of that toxic relationships you grieve relationships. 

Tracey: I felt like that with cigarettes. Actually, when I quit smoking, I felt like I lost my best friend. But again, there's another toxic relationship, right? 

Kelly: Yes. 

Tracey: Smoking. 

Kelly: Oh my gosh. Okay. This is not where I thought this conversation was gonna go, but like now I'm thinking. Netflix. Yeah, Food. 

Lindsey: Food for sure. Yeah. 

Yeah. What else are we even I remember my therapist trying to get me to try something other than yoga, because I would go to yoga every single day. And she was worried that I was going to get addicted. I don't think I did at any point. But yeah, I think she recognized that too. Oh, she's gonna get addicted to this now. [00:06:00] 

Kelly: Mm-hmm. 

Tracey: Well, you can, we can have negative relationship or toxic relationship with healthy things too. Right? Right. Even with exercise, people get obsessive or food being healthy with their food, but then people obsess over it, so it doesn't have to be necessarily a bad thing. To have an unhealthy relationship with it.

Kelly: But what do you mean, 

Tracey: like exercise generally is a good thing, but people can establish an unhealthy relationship with it by getting addicted to it or almost abusing it, yeah. Overuse of it for certain things. 

Kelly: Right, right. Yeah. Right.

Tracey: But I think that all those things Drinking particularly, maybe even, I'm sure drug use. I think because of what you started to say at the beginning, about, being so toxic to ourselves when we're in that state. Like the bad, self-talk and all that stuff. We speak very often, and it exists. The same cycle we put ourselves through, I think because of all those [00:07:00] things. Then we accept toxic relationships with other people. 

Lindsey: Ooh. 

Tracey: Would you 

Kelly: Cause we're lacking self respect. Yes. Yes. 

Tracey: Do you guys agree with that? Yeah. 

Lindsey: I didn't think of that until you said that. That's actually, Yeah, that blows my mind. If you're in a toxic relationship with yourself, how do I say this? You teach people how to treat, treat you right? Yes. 

So, if you're treating yourself badly mm-hmm., and you're disrespecting yourself and you're breaking promises to yourself, and you don't have boundaries with alcohol that I think opens up a lot. Other toxic relationships.

Kelly: What you're willing to accept from other people, right? If you're not willing to accept the best from yourself, you're not right. You're not gonna be able to demand the best from. An out an outside relationship. 

Lindsey: And that's like a friend, a boss, a co-worker. When I think toxic relationship right away, I jump to romantic partner.

Kelly: Yes. And that's what I thought we were. Right. But yeah. 

Tracey: Well, that's part of it. Right. But [00:08:00] like we were saying before we started recording, there's other toxic relationships there's toxic relationships with friends, there's toxic relationships in the work environment. And all of that I think is part of kind of settling for less than we're worth, depending on what point we are in our lives. I know I've been in toxic work environments, and I was actually in a toxic work environment at the beginning of my separation where my drinking started to escalate. 

Kelly: Right. 

Tracey: So, I'm How did that feel, that’s what I was gonna say. I'm sure being in that toxic work environment did not help my drinking.

Lindsey: Mm-hmm., right? 

Tracey: Because not only was I in a toxic work environment, but I was also dealing with a toxic ex and all that compiled. So, my self-esteem and self worth were definitely at an all time low between those two people basically, or those two things. And accepting a lot of abuse in both those situations.

Kelly: Okay. So, what's toxic? I feel like it's a [00:09:00] buzzword, like everybody's using this toxic, toxic, toxic, like what is toxic? 

Tracey: Well, there's a lot of buzzwords now around it too, right? Yes. Like gas lighting. 

Kelly: Yes. Mm, yes.

Tracey: Narcissism. Yep. Me and Lindsay talked about this earlier and we talked about it before, we could say, Yeah, we've been with narcissists. I can tell you I was looking at an article in Healthline. I like Healthline. They have a lot of good information actually. Mm-hmm. And it said 14 signs of a toxic relationship. 

Kelly: Wait, before you read those traits, I just wanna not lose my thought here. Hearing you say that, made me think, could this be, the toxicity of these situations, your work situation, for example relationships for example. And so much has come up on our podcast about not speaking our truth, 

Tracey: right? 

Kelly: So, I wonder if it would still be what we call a toxic situation if everybody was just speaking their truth and saying how they feel. 

Tracey: Oh, I think that's a really good valid point because [00:10:00] I think one of the things I was reading about toxics relationships is not feeling like you could be yourself or express yourself.

Yes. And I think it goes back to what we've spoken about many times, and I know Kelly and I have felt this way or did feel this way growing up, like you're suppressing yourself. 

Kelly: A hundred percent. 

Tracey: So, I would definitely say in the toxic environments I've been in, that's exactly what I was doing. 

Lindsey: Hmm.

Kelly: You're silencing yourself. Killing your spirit. All of it. Yeah. I think that sounds like that's what creates this toxicity. Somebody or multiple people in these situations aren't speaking up and speaking their truth. Don't feel safe enough to 

Tracey: A hundred percent. And that's a part of it too, right? The ability to feel safe in an environment to be yourself and exactly. Speak up or communicate. 

Kelly: Yeah. 

Tracey: So, here's 14 signs. You're in a toxic relationship, lack of support. Is number one. So healthy relationships are based [00:11:00] on a mutual desire to see the others succeed in all areas of life. But then things turn toxic. Every achievement becomes a competition. 

Lindsey: Mm mm-hmm. Hmm. Hm.

Tracey: Other than probably the relationship I'm in right now, I don't know. I've been in many relationships that my partner has encouraged my personal growth or advancing in life. I don't know about you girls. 

Lindsey: I think I've had both. I have been in a relationship where, as you grow and evolve and change, the other person is almost like a lobster, they sort of wanna drag you back down to that same level because then they don't have to do work on themselves. Everything can just stay the same. You're almost rocking the boat or something when you are achieving or growing, trying to better yourself. 

Tracey: Well, it also feeds into their insecurities around self worth 

Kelly: yeah. My 24 year [00:12:00] relationship he was very supportive, dating and just being the way I am, I am very goal oriented and yeah, I think some people think it's really cool. Well, most people think it's really cool. Mm-hmm. the way I live. At the same time, they think it's cool, but then they're like, what, what do I do with her? Like, where do I put her? Yeah. Where do I put her? If they're not secure with themselves, those are the ones that I find if they're not, Happy in their own life and achieving in their own life, then they seem to have a little bit of a problem with it.

Lindsey: Hmm. 

Kelly: I've never had anybody outwardly try to discourage me from being the way I am. 

Lindsey: I think it's passive though. Yeah. I think the discouragement isn't really like outright in your face. It's little digs it's really passive aggressive and that is toxic. That passive aggressiveness, I've experienced that with bosses, even that very passive aggressive. Attitude and it's like bullying. 

Kelly: Yeah. Yeah. We experience that in our [00:13:00] industry too. Yeah. Mm, yep. 

Lindsey: Such a good point. Yeah. 

Tracey: I've definitely experienced in work and personally, personally I have a hundred percent experienced. The fact that people who are not comfortable with themselves are threatened by your own comfortability.

Kelly: Yes. Yeah. 

Tracey: The fact that I've always, 

Kelly: not just romantic relationships. 

Tracey: Yes. Yeah. No friends too. 

Kelly: Women,

Tracey: just general people you meet, right? Yes. And then I've been in the work environment where people. Threatened by your ability to advance because you're smart, you're capable, and they intentionally do stuff and maybe passively to make sure that doesn't happen for you.

Lindsey: Hmm. 

Tracey: I've definitely been in that work environment too. 

Wow. 

I can relate to the lack of support and like you were saying, Lind’s just being with people that you make them feel like. I don't know, you're threatening their own self worth or whatever you were saying before. Sorry, I'm not communicating that very well, but 

Lindsey: No, I get what you're [00:14:00] saying. 

Kelly: I feel like we get into a whole conversation about masculine and feminine energy too, but I don't know if we have time mm-hmm. . . 

Tracey: That's interesting. 

Kelly: Yes. It's a very interesting thing I've been reading a lot about. Yes. 

Tracey: Yeah, that's true. K. The next one is toxic communication. 

Lindsey: Ooh. 

Tracey: Me and my partner ourselves have had the conversation of, cuz we've both been in previous relationships, where it's like that person just brings out the worst in you. 

Lindsey: Yep. 

Tracey: It's like maybe opposites attract to start mm-hmm. but then it's just like you completely bang heads. So, when there's a conflict, the arguing or the fighting is just terrible because it's just an all at war almost. Whereas naturally, both me and my partner are very non-confrontational people. Hmm. It would take a lot to bring that out in us, but we both had the experience with other people where they did have you guys had.

Kelly: I didn't. Until [00:15:00] last year. So last year I was in a relationship with somebody, and he was very, his communication was Let's go, let's, 

Lindsey: that triggers me. 

Kelly: Yeah. Let's fight this out. Yeah. And that's so not me. I have no problem, with the confrontation in discussing things, but it was like super combative and that was the end. I didn't wanna do that. And it was very obvious to me that it. Unresolved things from the past, which of course is gonna come up in relationships, but it was way beyond. I would've turned into a therapist role. Like no way. I was out. 

Tracey: That's good. You recognize that Kel and did get out of it because that isn't healthy behavior and unless you know 

Lindsey: that early on, right?

Tracey: Yeah. That's a big red flag, right? Red flag.

Kelly: Yeah. It's a huge red flag. And my life is good, and yes, I'm dating. Yes, I want a long-term relationship, but yeah, they have to enhance my life, not make it harder. That's right. Definitely. No, no toxicity. Yeah. 

Tracey: Well, and at what [00:16:00] cost, right, 

Kelly: Exactly. Yeah. 

Tracey: I guess if there was that sort of pattern and that person recognized it and they were trying to work on it, it'd be different. I know even for myself; I've worked at being a better communicator in my current relationship. Mm-hmm. because of bad habits I picked up from my previous. 

Kelly: Right. 

Tracey: You can work on these things, but you have to be aware Yes. That you're doing. and want to. Right. And a lot of people, or in my experience aren't or they can't be bothered to put the energy in to fix it, or like you said, Kel it might result from. Real history that they haven't dealt with. Right, 

Kelly: right. I do think that's the purpose of having relationships is to learn and to grow, but like you said, trace like that, you've gotta have that awareness of when stuff does pop up. And then like, it sounds like your relationship sounds inspiring to me because I think that's a really important factor is to have two people that are willing to work on. Put effort into it. 

Tracey: I say [00:17:00] that all the time, like I went into this saying that the next person I'm with needs to be willing to fight for me. Yeah. Just as I would for them. That has to be the mutual factor, because that's the only way any relationship lasts 50 years or beyond. There's no relationship that lasts long term unless the two of you are willing to do that because there's gonna be one point or another where one of you has to be fighting for the other. And even if it's not a high conflict situation, whatever, if someone gets sick, if someone loses a job, there's going to be a time where one of you is playing the role of the. And you both have to be willing to do that for one another, 

Lindsey: and then you can't hold it over the other person either. I've been in that situation where, maybe you're not at your best and the other person is sort of carrying a certain aspect of the relationship. But then, they turn around and throw it in your face. Right, right. Yeah. Is that gas light? I don't never gas, gas light. Like [00:18:00] that's toxic to me. For sure.

Kelly: Yeah. 

Tracey: We can go over the definition of gas lighting. Kel, I was gonna bring that up here too, but let's get through this list. Envy or jealousy?

Lindsey: Mm-hmm. Ooh, that's, yeah. 

Tracey: I've had that with. Family relationships. Mm. Because I have a really close relationship with my family, and I've had the experience of people that don't mm-hmm. and that can become an issue. 

Kelly: Hmm. 

Tracey: Controlling behaviors. Mm-hmm., some of these are pretty self-explanatory.

Resentment. 

Lindsey: I think jealousy is a way to control people too. Like 

Tracey: Absolutely. 

Lindsey: Oh my god. 

Tracey: and resentment. To me, that's one of the worst things because that's people holding on to something, mm-hmm. not letting go of things, and if you can't let go of things, you're not moving on.

Lindsey: Yeah.

Tracey: Dishonesty. Mm. Well, we all know what happens when people break trust, trust is gotta be one of the number one thing you need in a relationship. Sorry. Go ahead, [00:19:00] Lynn. 

Lindsey: Say one thing, even just being dishonest with yourself. Mm-hmm., one comment, something that came into my brain right away. When you said that dishonesty, it's like you think of other people lying, but how many people believe that wine is good for them? I feel like, you know, it's not mm-hmm., but it's that you're being dishonest with yourself. Yeah. When you choose to believe it. 

Kelly: That's why you say once I know something, I can't unknow it, right?

Tracey: Mm-hmm. 

Kelly: That's what that is that's the people that unfollow me on social media and things like that. Cause it's like, oh, I don't wanna look at this. But, 

Lindsey: And I think sometimes people don't wanna know, they know The's there, but they don't wanna hear it. Yeah, right. 

Kelly: They joke about it. I'm here for a good time, not a long time. Those words may have come outta my mouth. 

Lindsey: Mine you? Sorry to interrupt your list, but I was like, oh wait. 

Tracey: No, it's okay. No, that's perfect. Patterns of disrespect, I think that's respect's a big thing you need in a relationship too. Mm-hmm. 

Negative financial behaviors. 

Kelly: Yes. 

Lindsey: Ooh. 

Tracey: Which [00:20:00] definitely if you're sharing finances, or in a household together.

Kelly: Yeah. I know. That's why I always say like, no guy. I was thinking this actually when I went to Sobeys’s, but like no guy with a fancy car is gonna impress me cuz I'm. Is that paid for? That's all I wanna say. When I people hear that, I mean, or like a big house or whatever, I'm like, I don't give a shit. Yes. If somebody tells me like they have no debt, I'm like, Ooh, hello. No kidding. green flag. 

Not just a green flag. Yeah. 

But yeah, that you can get if you decide to, as my friend describes it, like she was, is divorced and doesn't wanna get entangled with somebody again, cuz once she got separated and divorced, she had to. Detangle, everything that a business and all this. So yeah, you wanna get in a relationship with somebody who has a poor, what did you call it? Trace? A poor 

Lindsey: negative financial behavior. 

Kelly: Negative financial 

Lindsey: behaviors like overspending,

Kelly: yeah's, toxic. Yeah. Overspending credit card debt, all that.

Lindsey: Don't look at me. Online [00:21:00] habits. Okay., 

Tracey: Well, that could be a whole another topic. The topic could be a whole an addiction there. 

Kelly: Yes. That in, I go on the same walking route almost every day. And no judgment, but there's somebody that has an Amazon package every day. Like what? She buys notice, I assume it's she

Lindsey: Yeah. No kidding. 

Tracey: Constant stress. Now I've definitely had relationships where I felt like and I think this is something I read too, just feeling like you're on eggshells. Yeah. I've had situations where I don't even wanna go home. I don't even wanna pull in the driveway. 

Lindsey: And that messes with your health. That messes with your hormones, your brain chemistry, your gut health, all of it. 

Tracey: Well, there, there's a red flag, if you don't wanna pull in your driveway at night, then that's a problem too. Yeah. Ignoring your needs. 

Kelly: Ignoring your own needs. 

Tracey: it says, going along with [00:22:00] whatever your partner wants to do, even when it goes against your wishes or comfort level, is a sure sign of toxicity.

Kelly: Hmm. Yeah, 

Tracey: you're right, Kel. Ignoring yourself. 

Lindsey: What about even in a work relationship, ignoring your needs, when a boss tries to pile more stuff on you and you're at your max and you can't say no. 

Kelly: Right? 

Lindsey: So, you accept it and then You're in a bad space. Yeah. You have a bad attitude. You resent it like Right. 

Tracey: That's true. That happens a lot in the work environment Lind’s that's a good point, 

Lindsey: Yeah. Yeah. 

Tracey: Lost relationships. You've stopped spending time with your friends or family. Mm. It's like isolating yourself, right? Right. 

Lack of self care. 

Kelly: Yep. 

Lindsey: Well, especially if you're, drinking, not going to the gym Right, because your partner doesn't like it, or is demanding more time of, or you are too hungover.

Tracey: Well, that too, yeah. We all, I think, have talked about the fact that we did lose. Our self care when we were drinking [00:23:00] heavily. Yeah. I know Kel talked about it, and I can say for myself, I wasn't going to the gym as much, I lost motivation for that too. 

Kelly: Yeah. 

Lindsey: And you eat like garbage. You eat like a freaking. Dumpster racoon. I know. You know what? 

Kelly: Well, yeah. I told you guys about the nacho platters that we would make. 

Lindsey: Oh my God. 

Tracey: It was the Bree and what? Kel That one killed me. 

Kelly: Oh, I'm so fancy. My crystal wine glass that's built to the fucking, and a wheel of Bree. Look at how classy I am everybody. Good audience. 

Lindsey: That's hilarious. 

Tracey: I love that. That's awesome. 

Hoping for change. You might stay in a relationship because you remember how much fun you had in the beginning. Mm. Maybe you think that if you just change yourself and your actions, they'll change as well. 

Kelly: Ooh. So, in the dating world, that is called falling in love with somebody's potential.

Lindsey: I do that all [00:24:00] the time. Kelly, I think you know this, I literally fantasize about what? I'm such a huge daydreamer. Yeah. I need to like stop this. I, 

Kelly: Well, you know what though? Okay. I'm gonna come to your defense with this because I think we're both like, this I see the best in people. Mm mm-hmm., it kicks me in the ass. a lot 

Tracey: I say I'm like that too. 

Kelly: Yeah, 

Tracey: absolutely. A hundred percent. I say that my superpower is my tolerance for people because I do, I can tolerate a lot of different personalities because I think it's in my nature and my auto response is to see the best in people first. Mm-hmm., so I can be a lot more accepting and tolerant of the bad.

Lindsey: I feel like I do that cause I want people to like me. Oh, do you know what I mean? I don't even know where that comes from, but I almost feel bad. setting a boundary or 

Kelly: why? Because you're afraid that you're gonna be reject, 

Lindsey: I don't know. I was reading, it might even be [00:25:00] from childhood where you had a parent say, Your mom? I feel like I always have to rescue people or give so generously to everybody all the time. Or 

Kelly: like your sense of worthiness for just being loved, for just being alive 

I don't even 

Lindsey: know how to describe it really. And then I have a hard time. Putting a boundary in place, I'm not gonna do that for you. I always find in a relationship, I'm the one over giving all the time, and I'm like, 

Tracey: Are you worried? Lynn's Cause I know I've had this before. Are you worried that they'll think you're a bad person? 

Lindsey: Hmm. Maybe I don't know if it's necessarily worrying that they think I'm a bad person, more so that if I say no or oh, I'm not gonna do that, then I'm gonna make them angry and they're not gonna like me. Even in a friendship relationship or something. Yeah. I've never done that with you, but I'm thinking other people, there are people that come to [00:26:00] my mind that I'm like, I do that a lot. Or early on in a relationship, in a dating sense, I find myself. Over giving and it's like over giving.

Kelly: In what way?

Lindsey: Like time, gifts, all the things, mm-hmm. Oh, you need help, I'll drive you here. Or, oh, you, you, you need this, but can't get it. I'll do it for you. 

Kelly: Yeah, there's some juicy stuff in there for sure., 

Okay. Sounds pretty toxic, doesn't it? Yep. Oh my God. But yeah, I was kind of reading that it has something to do with in early childhood, maybe you felt that one of your parents Needed your help or something, but like, that's such a messed-up dynamic.

You were, you were in the caregiver role. 

Lindsey: Yes. Yeah. It's such a messed-up dynamic. Totally. Mm-hmm., 

Tracey: Well, there's also a lot in childhood feeling like you're not accepted by a parent. Yeah. Yeah. 

Lindsey: And I don't even clearly remember it, so I mean, who knows? Maybe I was a baby 

Kelly: meditate, 

Lindsey: talk, like, 

Kelly: meditate on 

Lindsey: I'll falling a ball. 

Kelly: It's good. A good. [00:27:00] 

Tracey: And lucky number 14 was what I mentioned before, walking on eggshells. 

Kelly: Ooh. 

Tracey: Or feeling like you have to walk on eggshells. 

Kelly: Yes. Yes. Mm. 

Tracey: It does say that you. Fix a toxic relationship, but both parties have to be willing to work on it and work on their individual problems. 

Lindsey: Do you think that what one person thinks is toxic? Maybe another person doesn't 

Tracey: absolutely. 

Lindsey: I was thinking like, I might think a certain behavior or wave speaking is toxic. Mm-hmm. and the other person's like, what are you talking about? 

Kelly: Right. 

Lindsey: Or if they were in a relationship with somebody else, not even just romantically that person wouldn't react to them the way that I am.

Kelly: Give me an example. Give us, 

Lindsey: Okay. It's kind of stupid, but it's something that comes to my mind. I'm watching a, a reality TV show. Yeah. Okay. It's about dating and the guy in this relationship is always sort of overreacting and I've been in this sort of situation, this is why it stands out to [00:28:00] me, and it always ends with I'm leaving.

Kelly: Mm-hmm. 

Lindsey: So, they pack their stuff, and they try to go, and right away I'm like, that's just toxic. Well, mm-hmm.,

Kelly: yes, it's toxic, 

Lindsey: but the girl. Keeps chasing after the guy, the, sorry, They're, oh my God. And I'm like, this whole this is a messed-up situation. This is fucking toxic. Do you know what I mean?

Kelly: Yeah. But that doesn't, I wouldn't say she doesn't think it's toxic. She doesn't recognize it's toxic maybe, or she's in denial, but yeah. That's crazy. 

Lindsey: But I'm just like, He's manipulating her that way. Yeah. He's trying to control her behavior. Yeah. By. Giving a consequence, Yeah, oh, you're gonna stay up with your friends. Well, that's it. It's done. And I'm like, no, no. That's toxic. 

Kelly: Totally. Yeah. Yeah. Not healthy.

Tracey: That actually is a good segue into what gas lighting means. Lind’s 

Lindsey: Ooh. Talk to us. 

Tracey: Here is the definition of gas lighting. Manipulating someone by psychological means into [00:29:00] questioning their own sanity.

Kelly: like I didn't say. Oh, what are you talking about? I never said that. 

Tracey: Have you ever had someone tell you you're crazy? Cause I've had that said to me. 

Kelly: Yeah. I have Not Owning up to their own behavior. Yeah, yeah. Turning things around to make me the bad person. Mm-hmm. 

Lindsey: or that I didn't say that. 

Kelly: I didn't say that.

Lindsey: That's when I would take notes in my iPhone, and you talked 

about that. I'm thinking or know that didn't happen. That's okay. That's all. 

Kelly: So, narcissists, gaslight, just so everybody knows. 

Tracey: Yeah. So, let's look up narcissists, cuz that's another big buzzword now, 

Kelly: Yeah. I think there's narcissistic behavior, a lot of it going on right now. That's why there's a big difference between. Narcissistic behavior and a diagnosed narcissist. 

Tracey: Right? 

Kelly: A psychiatrist or psychologist. Yeah. Like 

Lindsey: is there, 

Tracey: Well, [00:30:00] narcissism is a personality disorder to start. Yeah. So, it is actually clinical. Yes. Issue. Okay, so narcissism personality disorder. One of several types of personality disorders is a mental condition in which people have an inflated sense of their own importance. A deep need for excessive attention and admiration, troubled relationships, and a lack of empathy for others. 

Kelly: Okay, and now look up covert narcissist, cuz that's something. 

Lindsey: I've never heard of that. 

Tracey: Have you guys ever heard of high conflict personality? 

Kelly: Well, you mentioned that to me Trace when I was in that situation there. I had never heard of that before. And then 

Tracey: did you look it up after I told you? 

Kelly: Yeah. Yep, yep. 

Lindsey: What's it called? High-conflict personality. 

Kelly: Yeah. 

Tracey: You should look it up too, Lynn, because

Lindsey: it sounds like, oh, I don't even wanna say it out loud. Mm-hmm. You guys don't, Yeah, sounds like, Sounds like my beep. 

Tracey: So, [00:31:00] covert narcissism Kel is directly related to gas light. 

Kelly: I know I 

Tracey: Gaslighting, manipulation and intimidation. 

Kelly: Yeah.

Lindsey: Oh, intimidation. That is so toxic. 

Tracey: Another big sign of a narcissist is someone who never takes responsibility for themselves. Yeah. So going back to that situation where someone's saying, you’re crazy, this didn't happen. Yeah, yeah. Blah, blah, blah. That all is directly related to the fact that they are not taking responsibility for their own actions. 

Lindsey: Right. 

Kelly: Right. So, one something I wanna say about that that's come up for me is this is. Okay, so me dealing with somebody in my life with this personality disorder, and I think a lot of people on the healing journey have had things happen in their lives. Call it childhood trauma, past relationship trauma, all of that. We have to learn how [00:32:00] to forgive without getting an apology. 

Lindsey: Oh god. 

Kelly: I'm speaking from experience and it's not easy.

Tracey: That's a really good point, Kel. That's a really good point because you know what? You're never gonna get an apology out of a narcissist. 

Lindsey: Never. No. 

Kelly: So, they will never own their behavior, ever. 

Tracey: I do wanna try to find something that I think would be highly beneficial for our listeners to hear If you're dealing with someone who's a narcissist or even this is directly related to something I learned when I was researching on high conflict personality. There's an acronym that you can in a way to deal with that type of personality. 

Lindsey: Oh, 

Tracey: and it's very specific and. It really works because I had to learn this technique and use it over and over again. 

Lindsey: I just got a smart-ass response in my head. I was like, is it fuck off. No. 

Tracey: No, actually it's about the opposite of that. One of the best things you can do with that type of personality. Well, the high [00:33:00] conflict, especially because they feed off conflict. 

Kelly: Yes. Yeah. 

Tracey: Is ignore. 

Kelly: Yes. 

Tracey: That's actually one of your best responses is no response. 

Kelly: That's the only way to get peace is get like strong, strong boundaries. Yeah.

Tracey: So maybe something you guys can chat about that I was thinking about while I look for this, if I can find it.

Kelly: I made some notes here. 

Tracey: Yeah, go ahead Kel go ahead. 

Kelly: Yeah. Let me just see, I was thinking about this this morning. Can I talk about toxic relationships? Because of alcohol. Like when, when alcohol plays a big part in relationships 

Lindsey: Yes. 

Kelly: And how that becomes toxic in our lives. 

Lindsey: Yes. 

Kelly: Okay. So, I really think that there is a huge misconception that drinking together creates connection. So, friends, partners, people, strangers, whatever. When really, it's disconnecting us because it brings us to such a low level of conscious. 

Lindsey: Oh, that is so good. 

Kelly: If you really wanna be [00:34:00] with somebody and connect with somebody, be present and in the moment, and alcohol does not do that. It takes you out of the present moment. Like our listeners know, I was in a relationship for 24 years and towards the end of my drinking career, we were drinking together in the evenings which looked like, oh, you know, a healthy couple that likes to spend more time together. But really deep down, our intuition was telling both of us that this is not the person you're supposed to be with. So, we were both shoving it down with alcohol, so we didn't have to face the truth. There's that truth word again. Mm-hmm., because facing a truth like that, really what we thought was going to be our reality forever is really hard. Yeah. The only way that we could really tolerate being there with each other was to drink.

Lindsey: Oh, wow.

Kelly: And it wasn't toxic in any of those other ways. We didn't fight, we didn't, and to this day, we're still friends, so it, that part wasn't toxic. Mm-hmm. [00:35:00] And we weren't getting wasted, some people get angry when they're drunk and all that stuff. Nothing like that. I mean, we were getting wasted, but just to go upstairs and pass out the other thing that I did that was really toxic was I made his unhealthy relationship with alcohol seem bigger than mine. Oh, I see now that that was a way, another way of me being in denial of my own problem. His just showed up in different ways and maybe more obvious classic ways than my problem did. And now in my life, making sure things aren't toxic. It's really about like what's the truth of this situation. What's the truth of this relationship? And the connection that I'm trying to make, and what is that person's truth? Because that's a toxic thing that I've done, is when somebody tells me the truth. Example, I am not ready for a relationship. Guess what Kelly does, 

Lindsey: operation. Let's have a relationship. 

Kelly: Oh, but he saw this and he saw that. So [00:36:00] really, like what is their truth and what does this connection mean to me? Maybe am I trying to ignore something or fill something that is lacking within me that I need to find within myself? I'm still learning. But like I said earlier, I really think that relationships are a way for us to grow and learn and see this stuff. How am I showing up in these situations? What can I learn and am I being true to myself? 

Lindsey: I just had like two mind blown moment.

Kelly: That's what happens after you meditate. That came to that. I wrote that after I meditated today. 

Lindsey: Do you know in me. Past relationship, my marriage, I was literally you have a drug problem. Mm-hmm., like you are a chronic weed smoker. It is so out of hand, but not even looking at yourself. 

Kelly: That's exactly what I did. 

Lindsey: Holy shit.

Kelly: That's exactly what I did. 

Lindsey: Oh my god. Mind you it was at a hand, but I didn't look Yeah. At me. I was like, no, it's you. Look at all the shit you're doing. Oh [00:37:00] geez. 

Tracey: Well, that's like Kel said, a toxic behavior right there. Right, right. But I can relate to what you're saying, Kel, because I'm pretty sure me and my ex did the same with the drinking.

I've said before that part of me drinking was almost have something in common with him. Right? Yes. And we were so. We really had nothing in common, so it became something to have in common. But not only that, I agree. I think we got to a point where that's what we used to tolerate one another.

Kelly: Yeah. And the situation, and the truth of it all. Yeah. And it's hard, anybody that's listening, like Yeah, like having kids and houses and cottages and businesses and bills. Bills together, all of that. Like that's hard to leave it. Mm-hmm., but I don't wanna tell you, it's way fricking better to be living your truth on the other side. And Trace always talks about that too, like, Yeah, 

Tracey: no, a hundred percent 

Kelly: it's worth it. 

Tracey: Go ahead Lynn. 

Kelly: It's scary. [00:38:00] 

Lindsey: No, I was just gonna say that's part of the reason that kept me in my marriage was I was afraid of. Entire change that was gonna happen. Mm-hmm., lifestyle, living

Kelly: all the unknowns.

Lindsey: All of the unknowns that was keeping me in a relationship that I knew I shouldn't be in. And also, what aided in me staying in it was numbing out with alcohol. 

Kelly: Right. Can you imagine if you were. 

Lindsey: No, I just got Do ever chill. Think about that. I know. I just, in my spine, I just got chills. 

Kelly: Imagine if we were still drinking and married.

Lindsey: No, I can't. And I feel like when you meet somebody, you shouldn't be drinking because it just, like you said, you think that you're drinking with the person and you're connecting, but you are really not. Yeah. 

Kelly: You're bringing yourself to a lower level. You're lower conscious. Yeah. Lower energy vibration.

Your heart's not open. No, like. It's 

Lindsey: well, how much do I owe for this therapy session you guys, because oh, damn. Like, 

Tracey: [00:39:00] wow. It's funny when you said that Kel, because that just instantly made me feel really sad and depressed. 

Kelly: Oh. Said what? 

Tracey: Like imagine if you were like to imagine myself still in that situation, but. One thing that I was thinking of when you were talking too, and I love this expression, and this was so enlightening to me, that I heard Oprah say, and I think originally it was from Maya Angelou, that when someone shows you who they are, believe them. 

Kelly: Yes. The first one, 

Tracey: when someone tells you who they are, believe. Yes. So, I have had this, somebody says like joking about themselves. Yeah, I'm really selfish. And you're like, Well, not, you're like, ha ha, but really, no, I can't. That's so cute. Yeah. So self or something. But really, they turned out to be one of the most selfish people you've ever met, and they were telling you that 

Kelly: People show you and people tell [00:40:00] you, yeah. If you're drinking, you're gonna miss it all. Mm-hmm. Do you miss it all? And Lindsay and I were talking before we started recording, I'm like, sometimes we have these conversations. Cause I didn't date when I was drinking and you guys bring up stuff, I'm like, Oh fuck. Like I do that, and I don't drink.

Tracey: Hey, it hasn't been an easy road. Okay? It's taken me a long time to get here. And even still in my current relationship, me, and my partner. Are working on it. You know, we, yeah, we do a good job together, but it took us a while to get there. Right? We had to find our rhythm. We had to come to agreements and come on common ground and decide, we know we want to be life partners. So, in order to do that, we realized that that requires work. Yes. And we both committed to putting the work in. But there has been work along the way. It hasn't just been easy peasy. 

Kelly: Right. So don't [00:41:00] always look for the easy. 

Tracey: Right. Yeah. Just because it's not easy doesn't mean that it's not gonna be great.

Kelly: Right. 

Lindsey: Such a good point. 

Kelly: Yeah. Let's, I'm gonna remember that

Lindsey: like nothing worthwhile. Downhill. It's, 

Kelly: look at our lives, at what we've put work into. Yeah. Our living alcohol free for sure. Health and work and all of that. It's all effort. So why should a relationship be 

Lindsey: any different? 

Kelly: Any different if we want it to be quality? That's inspiring. Tracey. Thank you.

Tracey: No problem. I found that Acronym

Lindsey: so, wises on your two-year anniversary. 

Tracey: Yes. I know I'm getting there. Right? Hey. Wow. It's a work in progress every day, oh. We're never fully complete, but we keep working towards it, 

Kelly: But we are perfect just as we are. Right. I think that's absolutely important for us all to remember is that Yeah, we're not gonna arrive somewhere and then be okay. Right? We're okay right now on the journey. Mm. 

Tracey: That's a good thing. Kel to [00:42:00] remind people of because we do, I think, get caught up sometimes beating ourselves up over where we are in this moment. Yeah. Because we might not be where we wanna be. That's right. But everything takes time in patience and yep. And work, 

Kelly: skip stuff. You can't skip the hard stuff. 

Tracey: Yeah. Yeah. You're right. So yeah, I found that acronym I was looking for dealing. High conflict people or narcissists. The acronym is B B I F F. The first B stands for be brief, two to five sentences is all that is needed typically in a response to someone like that. I stand for Be informative, focus on facts and straight information. F stands for being friendly. Use a friendly tone and the second F stands for be firm. Close it firmly, and if you need a response Oh, offer to, or more options for [00:43:00] the other person to choose from. Oh, okay. 

Kelly: Yeah. I've mis read that Brene Brown says that Clear is kind. 

Lindsey: Yes. She always says that. 

Tracey: There you go. 

Lindsey: Clear is kind. Yes. 

Tracey: And I'm telling you that it does work.

Kelly: That's really good. I can see that working. Yeah. 

Tracey: Because it stops you getting into a cycle of conflict with. Right. Like I don't know if you guys have dealt with this type of person, but I have where they just feed off arguing or going back and forth. Yeah. Yep. And that will stop that from happening.

Kelly: That's really good. 

Tracey: A big part of that too is when. People get in that cycle. We have a tendency, I know this happened to me all the time, still happens to me and I have to stop myself. We have a tendency to wanna defend ourselves, right? Mm-hmm., yes. It's, it's a waste of our energy 

Kelly: is a waste of energy with the Narcissist it is a waste high conflict person. Yeah.

Lindsey: It's just gonna keep perpetuating the crazy cycle. 

Kelly: Yeah. And that's the same in the same [00:44:00] area. How I was feeling when I said, you have to learn how to forgive without an apology. Mm-hmm. It's like you're never gonna get that person to see you. When you're defensive, you want somebody to see you as Right. It's not gonna work with Right. The narcissist ever. 

Tracey: Well, let's remember your number one goal shouldn't always be to be right as well. Mm. Sometimes we need to let that go. It's not about being right. Sometimes it's just about being heard or hearing the other side too. 

Kelly: Oh, can the whole world listen to that sentence, that's where we're at. Black. And that's black and white. Oh, I'm right. You're wrong. 

Tracey: Well, we got stuck in that, where are you going from there? If you're just focused on, I have to be. Right? 

Kelly: Especially somebody you wanna connect with. Oh. Or stay connected to. No, you can't. That's not Acceptance. That's not love. That's judgment and. That's conditional love. See things my way or you know. Ooh. 

Tracey: [00:45:00] Or the highway. 

Kelly: Yeah. Yeah. Or 

Lindsey: there's gonna be conflict. 

Kelly: Or there's gonna be conflict. Yeah. 

Tracey: Yeah. No, we have to have more flexibility than that and we should appreciate that people have. Their own opinions and their own ideas and that they can be different than ours. 

Kelly: Yeah. I have something to add to that list. Maybe number 15, something that I recognized in myself. Mm-hmm. When I was married, that I will not ever carry into another relationship. I don't think I have it in me anymore, but I criticism. I think criticism is the biggest relationship killer. Mm-hmm. I was very critical. 

Tracey: A hundred percent. I agree. 

Kelly: And that's an anxiety control thing too, right? Oh, yeah. Control comes with anxiety. Sure. I don't see people in that same way anymore Anyway, I don't think, but I do see my path as that probably really disconnecting us, me being so critical and wanting things to go my way and, yeah, 

Tracey: lack of appreciation too, mm-hmm., that's a huge one. Yeah. We take people for [00:46:00] granted over time. Yeah. And we forget to, to appreciate. Even for the little things. So, I think that's something that we have to always be consciously aware of and work on. Make it like a practice to appreciate your partner. Yes. Yeah. And appreciate each other, 

Kelly: how you're grateful for him.

Tracey: Yeah. But you know what, Kel One thing I can say is it's very hard to change your relationship patterns. It takes a lot of awareness and a lot of work. Yeah. It is very easy to slip into old patterns. Mm-hmm. Right. as much as I wanted the complete opposite of what I had when I split up, I kept re inviting that same type of person and that same relationship into my life until I stopped drinking.

Kelly: Hm. Hm. So, what do I need to do? What 

Lindsey: You're like, so I stopped drinking, 

Kelly: so, I stopped drinking almost five years ago. So, what do I need to do? 

Tracey: But there's still [00:47:00] work there then, right? Yeah. Yeah, they reviewed it. 

Lindsey: I think there's always gonna be work. Yeah. I I don't think you ever really arrive, per se. 

Kelly: No. So, but nothing changes. If nothing changes. 

Lindsey: That's true. 

Tracey: You just keep plugging away. 

Kelly: Keep on. Keep on. 

Tracey: The second you notice when you're in a relationship, you're doing something you've done before. Yeah. Oh, you gotta stop and pause. 

Lindsey: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it takes practice. Mm-hmm., you know, so awareness practice. Recognizing. Yeah. Yeah. This was a good convers. 

Tracey: Well, this was awesome. Yeah. I think this was a really great conversation. Mm. Yeah. We could probably talk for hours. Sorry. There's one final thing I wanted to bring up, Woo. That I think is directly related to this girl. Awesome. Is co- dependency. Mm-hmm. or enabling, especially in the drinking situation. Yeah. Okay. With someone as an enable. Is another [00:48:00] very toxic behavior that a lot of people don't recognize. I think a lot of people when they're with someone with a drinking problem do not realize they're enabling that. 

Kelly: No. And I can totally tell you that that was my situation in my marriage. Hmm. And how that showed up. I'm sure this has come up before, but how that showed up was me being completely hungover and embarrassed from being blacked out the night before. Wow. And saying like, oh my God, what did I did I do? And he would say, Nothing. You're fine. Everything's good. Everything's good. Instead of like, Holy shit, girl. Like calm, You're a show. Yeah. But then if, I think that codependency came into that also. If he admitted that I had a problem mm-hmm., then that would mean he would have to change his drinking. 

Lindsey: Right. 

Kelly: Toxic 

Lindsey: or maybe the relationship itself would change Yeah. Right. 

Kelly: Yep. 

But yes, codependency. So, the best description that I got when I was trying to understand what that [00:49:00] was very simple in case anybody is listening and doesn't understand what codependency. I'm, I'm only okay if you're okay. 

Tracey: Hmm. 

Lindsey: That's super simple, but Wow. 

Tracey: Yeah. Yeah. I don't think people do it intentionally, that's the thing. They don't realize they're doing it right. Yeah. Even my partner. Not that I feel like he was enabling, but at the same time, he just wasn't aware. So, he was like, well, why are you stopping drinking? Like you enjoy it, and it was just kind of oblivious type of thing. Right. But at the same time, kind of enabling, because he wasn't also saying, or calling me on the fact that yeah, maybe you're drinking a little too much or mm-hmm. But again, I think it was a lack of awareness. Not intentional, if there's people out there who are with people that have a drinking problem, maybe think about that. Think about how you're addressing it or what is your awareness of it and how are you kind of dealing with it in a way that isn't enabling your [00:50:00] partner? Right? If you wanna. Try to help them or get yourself out of that situation. 

Kelly: I think that could be a whole episode too, is, 

Tracey: Yeah. I think that's on our list of topics, Kel. Yeah. So, I think we will have that episode. But I thought it was really could tie in with toxic relationships. Because enabling can become toxic pretty quick. 

Kelly: Yeah. Yep. 

Tracey: Anyways, that was awesome. 

Kelly: Very good. 

Lindsey: Yay. That was really, I mean, I've had some aha moments there. Wow. Thanks so much to our listeners for tuning in yet again. Every Tuesday we drop a new episode, so don't forget to like, and subscribe and give us a five-star rating. And also, if you think that this would be helpful for someone in your life, share with a friend, share with family, and we love getting your feedback. If you wanna be a guest, we would love to have you. I guess that's a wrap for today. 

Yay. 

Tracey: Till next time. 

Lindsey: Next time. Keep laughing, 

keep laughing. Happy anniversary, Tracey

thank [00:51:00] you. 

That's huge. Two years. Woohoo. 

Tracey: Good night. 

Lindsey: Good night.

Closing

Kelly: Thank you for listening. Please give us a five-star rating like and subscribe, share on social media, and tell your friends. We love getting your feedback and ideas of what you'd like to hear on upcoming episodes of the laugh life podcast. If you yourself are living alcohol free and want to share your story here, please reach out.