Enabling Season 2, Ep. 9

Enabling is something that occurs often in the relationship dynamic with an addict. It happened very unintentionally when we are trying to help our loved ones but we are actually supporting their negative behaviors. In Ep. 9 we explore some of our past actions when we were drinking that reinforced negative behavior. We identify what enabling is and how we can recognize when we may be doing it. We also pose the question "What can we do to help people struggling vs. enable them"?

**Disclaimer: The opinions expressed in this episode are not professional or medical opinions. If you are struggling with an addiction please contact a medical professional for help.

**Please remember to: Like, Subscribe and leave us a 5-star rating or review. If you enjoyed this episode SHARE it with a friend.
Facebook @ https://www.facebook.com/groups/laflife
Instagram @ https://www.instagram.com/laflifepodcast
Website: https://www.laflifepodcast.com/
Be a guest on our show: https://forms.gle/GE9YJdq4J5Zb6NVC6
Email us: laflifepodcast@gmail.com

Connect with your podcasters. We'd love to hear from you!
Tracey: https://www.instagram.com/tnd1274/
Kelly: https://www.instagram.com/pamperedkel/
Lindsey: https://www.instagram.com/hariklindsey/

**Disclaimer: The opinions expressed in this episode are not professional or medical opinions. If you are struggling with an addiction please contact a medical professional for help.

Music provided by Premium Beats: https://www.premiumbeat.com
Song: Rise and Thrive
Artist: Young Presidents

Resources:
Wellness Togethe...

Transcript

Enabling, Season 2 Ep. 9

Intro

[00:00:00] 

Kelly: welcome to the LAF life podcast, a lifestyle podcast based on living alcohol free and a booze-soaked world. My name is Kelly Evans and together with my friends, Tracey, Djordjevic, Mike Sutton and Lindsay Harik. We share uncensored. Unscripted real conversations about what our lives have been like since we ditched alcohol and how we got here by sharing our individual stories.

We'll show you that there isn't just one way to do this, no matter where you are on your journey from sober, curious to years in recovery and everyone in between, you are welcome here, no judgment and a ton of support.

Hey everybody. Welcome to the LAF Life Podcast, season two, episode nine. We are going to be chatting tonight about enabling. Hey everyone. 

Tracey: Hello. 

Kelly: Hello. We're all here tonight. Yeah. Let's get the conversation going about, [00:01:00] enabling it had come up a little bit on our episode about toxic relationships. That was episode seven of this season. I'm only Okay if you're okay. We chatted a bit about that. What else, what have you guys had experience with? 

Lindsey: Before we hit record, I was like, what does that even mean? But I like that you reminded us that I'm only Okay if you're okay. So that's good. 

Tracey: Yeah. I think it's something that happens a lot with people who are struggling with addiction and their partners. It happens a lot too with children struggling with addiction and their parents. I think it's something that people do very unintentionally without realizing it. So maybe we can talk about some of the things that you might be doing without realizing it might be helpful to people in those situations. Because I think we think sometimes we're helping that individual right. When really, we're enabling them. 

Kelly: Can you talk about any direct experience with that trace? Like with, with having a dad that was a drinker growing up? [00:02:00] 

Tracey: Yeah, absolutely. I had a stepbrother who was an addict. Mm-hmm. and There was definitely some enabling that went on in the family as far as, when he ran outta money, people giving him money 

Lindsey: oh yeah, 

Tracey: he burned many bridges. We all gave him an opportunity to come stay with us and tried to help him at one point and he came and lived out in Calgary with me and try to get him back on his feet. Again, a lot of times we think we're helping, but sometimes that can be enabling. Sometimes in these scenarios, as hard as it is, we have to use tough love instead. I think it's hard. I know even when I was drinking and I was around other people that drank heavily, it sometimes made me feel like a hypocrite if they drank more heavily than me and I was concerned about their drinking., I felt like a hypocrite still sitting there drinking with them. To me that kind of felt like enabling.

Kelly: Right, 

Tracey: right.

Kelly: For sure. Even though you didn't have an issue at the time. 

Tracey: Yeah, [00:03:00] yeah. 

Kelly: Mm-hmm. 

Tracey: Exactly. Mm-hmm. Right. Enabling is anything from giving people money, to support their habits, to giving them a place to stay. Not letting them hit rock bottom almost is part of it too. Right.

Kelly: That'd be so tough. I can't imagine, especially being a parent, thank God none of my boys have, had any issues with any substances, but I can't imagine even the tough love, I can't, I can't imagine having to not say no to them, but not give them a place to stay or, anything like that. So, it must be really hard for people in that position. 

It is really hard. When my stepbrother was out in Calgary with us, he got back into his addiction and, I was trying to help him get home and he showed up at my house and my only rule was, don't come to my house high, mm-hmm. just show up and be sober. He was staying the night in a detox, and I said, just show up at my house sober and I'll get you to the airport. [00:04:00] Well, he showed up at my house high. Mm-hmm., because I refused to have him in my house and not state so I took him to the airport and left him at the airport overnight. I'm like, you can sit there and wait for your flight. You're not staying with us in this condition. And that was hard, and it was scary too. He was high. I didn't know how he was gonna react or what. I was in the car by myself with him, and I didn't know how he was gonna be or if he was gonna be angry or aggressive or whatever. But that's what I felt like I needed to do. I felt like if I let him stay, it's giving him a pass or saying it's okay for him to disrespect me in that way and show up when I'm trying to help him out. So yeah, it is tough. I think, sometimes in those scenarios, that's what you have to do so that the person gets to a place where they're desperate enough to get help almost.

Right. 

Lindsey: I would feel so bad doing that. That's like another, it's a boundary thing 

Kelly: too, but I know, I was just thinking about that boundary. 

Lindsey: What if [00:05:00] something happens? What if you drop him off at the airport and then he calls somebody to come get him and they go pick up or do whatever and, an accident happens, or I don't know. I don't have kids so Kel I don't know if it was like a child of mine, saying, no, you can't stay here if you're gonna be high or drunk or whatever. I can't imagine what that would be like and then trace with this situation oh man, I don't know if I could just drop somebody at the airport and be like, well, you're gonna sit at the airport. Cuz, I don't trust that they would just do that and then I would feel bad if something happened. 

Kelly: Right. 

Lindsey: But are you just supposed to let that happen? I don't know. 

Kelly: Yeah, I guess here what Tracy's saying about. Yeah, they've gotta get desperate enough to get help. If they've got a comfy place to stay and money and all of that, that's not, it's true. It's not helping them. 

Tracey: Yeah. 

Lindsey: No, that's true. Mm-hmm. 

Tracey: Well, that's the thing. I mean, [00:06:00] we got to a point with him if he needed stuff, we would just go buy 'em groceries. There was no giving him money. Oh. Because the second you gave him money, you knew where it was going, and it wasn't going to anything worthwhile. Right. I think part of what happens with enabling, and I've seen it in other dynamics and relationships with say drinking for instance, the enabling becomes a part of the lying and the hiding. I've seen this happen where., you're almost protecting or defending that person's bad habits or whatever they're doing and hiding how much they're drinking or whatnot.

Lindsey: Oh, yeah. Okay. I see. 

Tracey: Mm-hmm., 

Kelly: right? Yeah. Well, in my relationship, you guys tell me if this is enabling each other codependency or what, neither one of us wanted to quit. Mm-hmm. So, we would talk about moderating together and make rules together. But if either one of the people, had a, it was mostly me that had really bad [00:07:00] night, bad night.

Yeah. Nobody ever said to the other person like, hey, maybe you should quit. Not once. Oh. Because, if he said that to me mm-hmm., you need to quit, you have a problem, then that would mean that he would. Also need to either quit or change his relationship with alcohol. Right. So, what's that?

Lindsey: Well, what were the rules? I'm curious, when you say rules, I'm like, what, what kind of rules did you have? 

Kelly: Oh, the many. 

Lindsey: I do think it's enabling. 

Kelly: Yeah. We had rules around like when we were gonna drink, you know, oh, only on the weekends, but neither one of us worked a nine to five job, so that didn't matter. We're like, oh, it's Wednesday night, it's our weekend, cuz now you're off we four days. Stuff like that. And towards the end we did try and not have alcohol in the house and then only go, if we went out, we would drink. And then that was just an absolute shit show. And yeah, none of the rules ever worked. We'd do it wasn't called dry whatever or sober October or whatever at the time. But we would do that. Yeah, we would try and go, try and go a month without [00:08:00] any those kinds of rules. 

Tracey: What happens sometimes too is that people enable because they know that that person's gonna struggle if they don't have that substance sometimes it's easier for people to, sometimes you wanna rock the boat, deal with that person, right?

Kelly: Ooh,

Tracey: I think we've heard that from some of our guests in certain scenarios that it was just their spouse might have found it easier to deal with them so they, say going and getting the alcohol or getting them whatever they're addicted to. Right. 

Lindsey: Or being like, it wasn't that bad, when you know shit hit the fan. You did some ridiculous stuff or whatever. You got outta control. And your spouse or whatever is like, No. It wasn't that it wasn't that bad, but it was a mess, 

Tracey: mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. not calling you out on your behavior. Pretty much. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Or protecting you or making excuses for you. I have a quote here I can share that I thought was really good, and I think it [00:09:00] identifies what enabling does pretty well. 

Enabling makes it possible or even encourages your loved one to remain stuck in immaturity, irresponsibility, addiction, or any other dysfunction. 

Kelly: Hmm. Okay. Yeah, that's, I hear that

Lindsey: I do too. To remain stuck is the part that hits home. 

Kelly: Yeah. 

Tracey: Yeah. Kel, I think you've talked about this lots of times, so maybe This would be kind of an example of how that happened for you too. 

Kelly: Right. 

Lindsey: You know what guys? And I think too, we enable ourselves by keeping it a secret, because that just made me think about how secrets have the most hold over us when they're in the dark. When you're fighting so hard to keep something a secret it's exhausting and it just has such power over you. When you're not talking about what's really going on, you're enabling yourself to stay stuck because you don't have to face it. Right?

Kelly: Mm-hmm. 

What do you think, Mike, do you think [00:10:00] for instance, you and your friends enable each other, I think it happens definitely amongst friends and buddies too. 

Mike: What do you think that career is made of is? Yeah, of course. Men probably do it well. 

Tracey: No, women are pretty bad. The whole yes mommy wine culture is pretty bad. 

Lindsey: You deserve it. 

Mike: Women and what it does, and that, I never thought that they did. But oh yeah, I can think of a number of instances. There was one particular person that I used to roll with that I saw from a distance for a long time, I'm like, this is getting outta control with not just drinking beer, but it was like shots and shots on Monday at seven o'clock, and it's like, dude, I'm only here for a few beers. I'm not, and it was six, seven, and then, you know, it's like you could see it progressing and then,

Lindsey: oh man, 

Mike: ultimately something happened that changed his life. Thankfully, he's still here and he's changed his life because of the situation. But oh yeah, we got, actually, now I think about it, he [00:11:00] and I got into a fist fight on Christmas Eve, both drunk, and I don't think anybody was right or wrong as to why the fight started, but that was the breaking point for me. I was like, I'm done with this shit. I'm not doing this anymore. And there was a break in the friendship per se, wasn't, a break, but kind of just stayed distanced for a number of months. and then a few months after that, when the situation arose, and it was life or death situation. So yeah, it was pretty traumatic. But yeah, I think my friends enabled me from a perspective of, I had so many groups of friends they would call, hey, want to hang out, have a few beers. And it was like Monday night, Tuesday night. Like I said, I never drank at home really? And I never had booze at my house or beer at my house or whatever, and I'd go out 3, 4, 5 nights a week. My biggest thing was I didn't want them to dislike me. And I thought, what, what a bunch of shit. Like, what a bunch of bullshit we put into our head that, oh, if I don't go, this person's gonna dislike me. Like, well, you know what? Now, in a more clearer sense, because I think you'd all agree that your [00:12:00] brain fog starts to clear over time and you think, man, how irrational was I thinking about what other people thought of me in relations to a friend and alcohol and how it ties together with we're drinking buddies.

Right. it's ridiculous. I think it's a load of crap personally, but most people play the guilt that I still get it. I still get it. I get it in the sense of post sports, hey, we're having a beer, you want a beer. I'm like, no. Oh yeah, you're pussy. But it's, they're saying 

Kelly: that's so crazy too.

Mike: Ah, but I can handle it. 

Kelly: That's like three years. My God.

Mike: I know. But I think it's, that's how they know how to relate to me, because they know that I'm gonna give it right back to them twice as bad and say something to put them on the spot I don't know exactly what I'm gonna say, but I'm pretty witty that way. So, say something 

Kelly: about their hangover the next day. 

Mike: Oh, I'd probably go a little bit deeper than that, but yeah., I'm pretty ruthless and that's just my personality. But hey, if somebody doesn't have that kind of thicker skin, [00:13:00] they shouldn't put themselves in that situation to be around those people. Right. Because that's a trigger to, to potentially go back to doing something that you may not want to do. Mm-hmm.? 

Kelly: I think, well, that's the thing, the confidence, right? Somebody was asking in our Facebook group the other day about going out and missing going out and things like that, and I couldn't go out at first. I did not have the confidence to go out at first, but now I can. No problem. It takes time. But I do think it gives you, I don't know if I would say a thick skin, but it gives you confidence to Yeah. just come up with witty responses. Like, I drank my lifetime maximum already. I had to quit, you know, things like that.

Mike: Well, so going out, it's a good comment Kelly, but going out. For me, I didn't start going out like nightlife going out. I went out for dinner and that was a cause, if you're going for a nice dinner with a group of friends and it's like, no, I'll just have water with lemon or something, you know?

Kelly: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 

Mike: And that's easier, I think. Cause are you really gonna get bombed over the course of dinner? I mean, [00:14:00] you, 

Kelly: I used to. 

Mike: I'm saying most people would come to dinner sober, have a couple of drinks, and then after dinner's over, go carry it on. At least that's right. The way that I saw things, but maybe I'm wrong, maybe I am wrong. 

Lindsey: I think it's a power move, ordering water or a non-alcoholic drink. That's totally, I, I actually love doing it and I love the reactions that I get. Yes. It used to make me self-conscious, but I'm like, yeah, bitch. Like. Yeah. You know, like, that's right. I want a sparkling water, or I want a non-alcoholic Caesar. And people are like, what? I'm like yeah, you're drinking, you're the pussy because you are conforming, and you feel this pressure to drink. Like you have to Also, my bill is gonna be so cheap. Speak. Thanks, 

Mike: What do you say when someone says you don't drink? And then they say, when you say, no, I haven't drunk in X Or even if it goes that route, no, I don't drink. And you just like, [00:15:00] and then the conversation's over. I know what I do is say, yeah, I haven't had a drink in like almost three years. I'm telling you that, yeah, I do. That 5% is good for you. They're shocked. 

Kelly: Yes. 

Lindsey: The shock. It's shock. Always Really don't, 

Kelly: A lot of people, a lot of people don't ask me. 

Mike: And I'll ask you the number of years, but if you, if you volunteer it up, is what I'm saying. 

Kelly: Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. 

Lindsey: Right. I get shocked. That's the number one. I always get the, really, the years 

Kelly: good for you. Yeah. I get the good for you. 

Lindsey: feel like the good for you is like a pity, like, oh, you don't drink oh three. No. I feel like it's people 

Kelly: that, like, I remember being fascinated by people that didn't drink when I was drinking. I was like, what? How, what, what do you, how do you do all the things about alcohol? That's right. Yeah. It was pretty fascinating. We always talk about this, but I do find that the people that are, resistant to it or might have something negative to say about it, they're the ones that are not comfortable with their own relationship to alcohol.

Tracey: Oh yeah, for sure. 

Mike: Or life. 

Kelly: Mm-hmm. 

[00:16:00] Mm-hmm. Going back to the confidence thing, I think this whole living alcohol free and doing all the things without alcohol gives you so much confidence that it doesn't matter what people say when you go out, you're just like, nah, nope, I'm good.

Tracey: I feel like I got a reaction. People wanna say why did you have a drinking problem? Mm-hmm., but they don't wanna ask. Right. 

Kelly: Like, you come up with so many smart-ass comments to that. Yes. 

Lindsey: I always like saying they're like, oh, you don't drink. I'm like, yeah, why you do

s, Oh, okay. 

Tracey: But you're, you're right. They're always, always 

Kelly: can tell your face. Your skin is really, yeah. glow. Just kidding. I would never say that.

Lindsey: Oh no. That's like, I can tell by the puffiness. Yeah. 

Kelly: I can. Mm-hmm., I used to be puffy too. [00:17:00] Yeah. 

Lindsey: I used to have that binge drinking wine puffiness. Yeah. That was, 

Kelly: oh my God. 

Lindsey: A really good look. So, humiliating actually. 

Mike: Yeah. This song in there somewhere, I'm just thinking of smelly cat, puffy face. 

Kelly: I can make up a song.

Tracey: I find though, that people do, or at the beginning a lot of people were like, oh, you sure you don't wanna drink? Oh, are you sure you don't wanna drink? I think too, it's like, no, like really. I'm sure I said no. Right? 

Kelly: Yeah. Just no and no explanation. You don't have need to explain ourselves.

Lindsey: You don't. You don't. 

Tracey: But this is where the enabling comes in. Right. Here's the other thing, people don't wanna drink alone. Got it. Or they don't want, the only I used to want per drinking, oh, only one [00:18:00] partaking, right? Mm-hmm. Social situations. And I think it's no different than with a partner, right?

 If both you and your partner drink, I can speak to that with my ex-partner. It's the same thing. They don't wanna be drinking on their own. It goes back to okay, well am I drinking more than you type of thing. And it turns into that, 

Kelly: Tracey? I just wanted to ask, do you think that's part of what led you to have the confidence to quit was because Randy didn't drink, 

Tracey: oh, I definitely think it helped, no doubt. But at the same time, he didn't really encourage not drinking he just thought, if you like it, just continue to do it. He didn't ever identify it as a problem per se. And I don't know if that was just him being kind of naive too, because he doesn't drink and he knows other people do drink, have a drink after work and stuff like that.

Mm-hmm. So, I think he thought, I don't think he did it intentionally, and I think he just thought that it was kind of the norm of what people that drank [00:19:00] did. Right. So, he didn't see it abnormal that I was coming home every day and drinking wine and I wasn't blacking out or falling down, slurring my words, drunk either because I had a good tolerance for it. So, he wasn't experiencing a lot of that either. I think I mentioned this originally in my own story. Being with him and him not drinking, really reminded me of the period in my life where I wasn't a drinker. 

Kelly: Mm. 

Tracey: So, I did, I envied that about him. And you're like,

Kelly: oh, he's clearheaded all the time.

Tracey: Yeah. Yeah. 

Kelly: He doesn't feel like shit in the morning. Yeah. 

Tracey: I really admired that about him. Mm-hmm., I was like, I think it's great because his whole life, he's been going places and not drinking with a bunch of drunk people and saying, I don't drink. 

Kelly: Right. 

Tracey: For him it's really normal to be the odd man out kind of thing.

 I don't know that I would've made that decision had I been with someone. Who was a drinker, right? Mm-hmm. 

Kelly: Yeah. Definitely not. Or maybe your drinking would've gotten worse, and you would've had a [00:20:00] worse, you know, ending to it all. 

Tracey: Well, what I didn't have definitely was the temptation to go back to it because it was never in the house, or I didn't have a partner sitting beside me having a drink. Definitely in the initial phases when I was just trying to get it out of my system and out of the house, it helped not having someone that drank. And I think that is hard and a transition that people go through because I know even with my dad and, and my stepmom, for instance, when my dad first quit drinking, she did too, she didn't drink around him. I think a lot of people go through that transition and I've seen that a lot. 

Kelly: Mm-hmm. 

Tracey: There had to be a comfortability point before she started. having a glass of wine and stuff like that. Right, 

Kelly: right, right. Hey, going back to, going out and ordering non-alcoholic cocktails, I saved something on my Instagram today and it's just a cover, it's like a screenshot from the Hollywood Reporter and it's from the lifestyle section and it says, Hollywood's new party, drink of [00:21:00] choice, non-alcoholic cocktails.

Lindsey: So, woo. 

Kelly: We're on trend, you guys. 

Lindsey: Yeah, I love it. Just listening to you ladies talk. I was thinking about my own situation. I know most people don't like to drink alone, but I did my best drinking alone. I really liked it. Mm-hmm. I loved having my wine by myself and at the time I had a spouse that traveled a lot for work, so I think being alone, Enabled me to keep drinking and drinking to the excess that I was, because I don't think, for me to be around friends or even, speaking about Christmas Eve, that was a shit show at my mom's.

Kelly: Just remind us in case the listeners didn't hear that part of your 

Lindsey: what are you referring to, Kel 

Kelly: getting carried in? 

Lindsey: Oh yeah, yeah. That was the last Christmas Eve that I was drinking. It was always some sort of fight would ensue with my sisters. There would be a screaming match, there [00:22:00] would always be crying. Then it would be like hysterical laughing and dancing, and it'd just be ridiculous. I had to be carried into my house. it was crazy. But I just think being alone all the time, being with somebody that was traveling for work a lot I was able to drink and not being around people, I didn't have to justify the amount. And I would feel the weight of that. I would have a bottle of wine and I would wanna open a second one. And people, were still drinking their first one or not even have done it yet. And I'm just like, oh well, okay. I feel weird now opening the second one. So, I like drinking alone. I think that enabled me. 

Kelly: Mm-hmm.,

Tracey: I can relate to that though too, Lynn, cuz my partner is a shift worker, so I was by myself a lot too. And like I said, my drinking actually increased when I was single because I was by myself when I didn't have my daughter. So same thing, it kind of became like a companion, right?

Lindsey: Yes. Mm-hmm. 

Kelly: Yeah, yeah, yeah. My ex worked shift work, [00:23:00] so on his nights I didn't work by myself. Yeah. Oh, 

Tracey: I definitely drank more when I was by myself than when Randy was home. 

Lindsey: That's me. 

Mike: Yeah. Yep. Opposite. And I'm the opposite. That's insane. 

Tracey: Yeah. You are. Mike, you never drank at home. 

Mike: Crazy. Crazy. Alone. Drinkers. 

Lindsey: Crazy. Alone Drinkers. Yeah. Holy mo. 

Kelly: Watched like my trashy tv and 

Lindsey: me too. I wouldn't remember it the next day or like an hour later I'd be like, did I finish that? What happened? I don't know. Snack time. Time to eat. Time to eat a wheel of breath. 

Kelly: That's right.

Mike: Wow. 

Tracey: Do you ever think that you enabled your partner because you said he had a thing with pot, right? 

Lindsey: Mm-hmm. That's a really good point. I feel like yeah. Yes, is the short answer. Definitely probably encouraged the continued use and I know when I met him it was already a thing. And I feel like he tried to maybe [00:24:00] hide it a little bit at first because I was really against it. Here I am wasted all the time. I'm like, no smokers, no pot smokers either. But you know, he was both. And yeah, I feel like towards the end of our relationship it's the same thing. It was a lot. And for sure, I think my habit, getting wasted every weekend probably encouraged him. To keep doing what he was doing. 

Tracey: Like excused it almost did you feel like you almost excused what he was doing because of what you were doing with your drinking?

Lindsey: Maybe a little bit. Yeah, for sure. I could definitely relate to you saying that probably a little bit. 

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 

Tracey: Now, was he a drinker too? 

Lindsey: Oh yeah. I'll never forget the first, the first date I was puking in his toilet. Like, I'm not even kidding. He was holding my hair back a red flag.

Mike: But that's love. I, I'm sorry. 

Tracey: Sure. Love. 

Lindsey: Classy. Just classy. 

Tracey: Lindsay, you thought, oh, he is a keeper. He's [00:25:00] holding my hair back. 

Lindsey: He's a keeper. Oh my God. 

Tracey: Sweet. 

Mike: What was he thinking? 

Lindsey: Oh god. Yeah. He had, right, he was like, that's the girl I'm gonna marry. There she is. 

Kelly: There's, there she is. 

Mike: And that's not a knock against you, Lindsay, it's, no, it's,

Lindsey: but it should be. No, you're right. I mean, it should be, 

Mike: I'm saying not a knock against you personally, but a knock against somebody. Yes. Cause look, guys would do that. Guys would be, oh, poor her. And it's like, if I saw that and I'd be, and I've seen that, I'm like, add yes. I don't want anything to do with that. Its drama written all over it down the road. It's for sure the way, and hey, it's not worth the crap in the end, at least for me. Which makes me wanna ask you guys, not so much you, Trac you're connected, but how do you feel about attracting a partner who's, I think we've talked about this before, but you both kind of like, I'm looking for [00:26:00] somebody who's is not a drinker, that's definitely something, or maybe I don't, I mean, if I'm putting words in your, into your mouth, please interrupt. But how do you feel about attracting somebody who may be a drinker you may be enabling them in some capacity if they are a drinker? So, yeah, yeah, go ahead. Go ahead. Like what Tracey was saying with Randy and how he said, if you like drinking, then just do it. I don't see what the problem is.

Kelly: So, I'm not against dating a drinker. Yep. I wouldn't date somebody that obviously is addicted and has an abusive relationship. I did have a boyfriend that was a regular drinker. He never got drunk in front of me in the end. That's why we broke up. Because he missed getting drunk, 

Mike: like more than he told you that he drank.

Kelly: Yeah. So, he wasn't honest about how much he liked drinking. Right. But yeah, I know what questions to ask, and I know what to watch for, but I'm not [00:27:00] against dating somebody or being in a relationship with somebody who drinks. 

Mike: What about. 

Lindsey: Yeah, I'm not either. As long as it's not somebody abusing the substance. Like if somebody wants to have beers with the guys at a hockey game or whatever as long as you're not getting shit faced and driving putting yourself others in danger, like reckless things like that drinking to the point of being blacked out and then being abusive, but somebody who's a drinker, drinking socially, I don't see much of a problem with it. It's not something that triggers me. I'm not like, I see. Or smell alcohol, I want to have a drink. I never feel that way. 

Kelly: No. A lot of my friend’s drink. That's what I'm associating to. I spend time with my friends who drink and then that doesn't bother me. But I also have friends in my life that don't get wasted and aren't, blocking out. Yeah. So same thing with dating somebody

Lindsey: mm-hmm. 

Tracey: Do you guys think you can [00:28:00] enable people in a positive way? 

Kelly: Mm-hmm.? Mm-hmm.? 

Lindsey: Oh, I think so. 

Kelly: Mm-hmm. Yeah, for sure. 

Lindsey: I think you can create a safe space for somebody to, to decide that they don't want to drink or that they don't have to, your decisions. If I'm out and I'm sitting at a dinner and I'm at a table of people and everybody's ordering cocktails, and then the server comes to me and is like, what can I get you? And I order a Pepsi. Somebody who, I used to be that person, I used to be hung over as shit and, I can't drink. I was never somebody that could drink two days in a row. But going out or having a commitment that I had to be at the next day feeling like shit and ordering a drink because everybody else at the table did. So, me 

Kelly: Oh, I see what you're saying. 

Lindsey: Yeah. So, if I order a Pepsi and somebody at the table was like, I don't really wanna drink tonight, but everybody's drinking, so I might as well order one. I think I can enable people to be like, see, you don't have to, 

Kelly: you don't have to. Yeah. That's really good, Liz. I love that. 

Lindsey: This is, this [00:29:00] is a safe space for you to choose what you really wanna do, be your authentic self and you don't have to be like everybody else at the table 

Mike: Never mind in life. Right? 

Lindsey: In life. 

Kelly: In life, yeah. Just be yourself. Do you 

Mike: fuck them 

Kelly: but yeah, fuck them. And you know what? People don't care. That's what I learned. I don't you So I had so, so much fear, like thinking back, I had so much fear around quitting around what are people gonna think of me? And I learned that they do not care.

Mike: their own problems.

Kelly: They don't even notice half the time that I'm m not drinking alcohol

Mike: themselves. Half of them. So, 

Kelly: that's right. Yeah. No, they don't. And anybody who's listening, that is their fear. I get it cuz I felt the same way. But people don't care. 

Mike: Fuck.

Lindsey: Even if they make a comment, even if they're like, really? It lasts two seconds. And then they just get on with a night. And at the end of the day, nobody really cares. They're not gonna be like, remember that dinner we had Christmas 2019 and you didn't order a [00:30:00] drink? 

Kelly: Or nobody's gonna be like, you got, you get what Pepsi, what 

Lindsey: you drink? You drink Pepsi at that dinner. And that was not cool. Like, no, no one gives a shit. 

Mike: Remember the times that you got wasted and like, hey, remember when you no. 

Lindsey: Remember when you puked in a wheelbarrow and then, felt like, people remember that kind of crap. 

Mike: Where were you to puke in a wheelbarrow? It's like where you had like a wagon pole or something. 

Lindsey: Oh man. 

Kelly: Yes. I can see Lindsay doing that. 

Mike: Sorry Lindsay. It was 

Lindsey: the time I slept in a wheel. 

Kelly: You puked it and it and slept in it. 

Lindsey: Probably, I probably did a night. Honestly, you guys, I have stories. Oh my God, 

Kelly: that was my part of my problem. I drank so much is I never puked until the next morning.

Mike: You just nailed it, Lindsay. The stories, do the stories enable you to keep drinking? I create your legacy, right? 

Lindsey: No, I wanted to be my legacy. I was humiliated. [00:31:00] I was always full of shame when I heard that. Mm-hmm. You think that that would be enough for me to be like, oh my God, this is not the person I want to be. This isn't who I truly am, that I'm acting this way, but no, I'm gonna keep drinking the substance. It's crazy, Yeah, just being around people who were binge drinking too enabled me to do it and people blew it off. Nah, you were fine. Okay. So, you, tripped 17 times and, and puked in your hair you're good. That's, not good. 

Tracey: That's what I was gonna say, Lynn. I think in those moments, your friends enable you and that's were, yeah. I think what you're trying to speak to there, Mike, as I'm sure your friends enabled you by having all these stories with you, but, oh, Mike, remember when you did this and 

Mike: Right.

Tracey: Blah, blah, blah. Right. 

Mike: That's what I meant. Not so much the friends, but the stories build the, I'll use the analogy of well the Al Bundy, hey, he played football at Paul High School. Like that kind of thing. 

Kelly: I feel like [00:32:00] that's more a man thing. 

Lindsey: Yes. 

Mike: And that's fair. And that's fair. That's why I was asking, right? I know now when I think about it, I probably go, you know, okay. Twenties for sure. Okay, houseboat trips in May long weekend for sure. Mexico trip, I mean, all these things that happen and then you get to be your thirties and it's like, eh, you felt like myself, but okay, I'm gonna keep going. And then for me, in my relationship was, I wouldn't say, I'd say enabled it to a certain capacity where she always drove no matter what, whatever, we'd go out and spoke. She was always the driver and right. I could probably count on one hand. When I maybe have been the driver, maybe, or we would stay wherever we were going.

A lot of the times Tracey may have been there, but come on, I never drove Right. Trace, I was always, mm-hmm. So, as you progressively get older, I think story, persona or whatever you wanna call it kind of starts to wear off and goes, like you Lindsay said, I don't know if I like these. No. I don't wanna be [00:33:00] labeled as, the person that pukes in the wheelbarrow or the guy Yeah, the guy that gets naked on the pool table. 

Kelly: Yeah. I was, I have had so many of those stories and they played out for years and years and I always laughed, and it was always a joke. One time I hit my head and had like a concussion getting outta somebody's car and then like the next party I had this pink helmet on and stuff. But like, okay. That is funny.

Mike: But that pink helmet was, 

Kelly: that is funny. Like Lindsay, 

Mike: the pink helmet was the story. Right. 

Kelly: But deep down the, I was full of shame. I was laughing and da da da. Thought it was hilarious. Pretend it was hilarious. But deep down I was I don't wanna be 

Lindsey: humiliated.

Kelly: Yeah. Falling down drunk. Now here's something, okay, this came up this weekend because I was away at, and I was telling my roommate about conferences. I was the enabler of all, and I didn't realize that. I thought everybody drank the same way that I did. I drank a lot at these [00:34:00] conferences so once I quit drinking, I skipped a couple. So, I didn't feel strong enough in my, sobriety to attend because I was so used to drinking at them. And then once I went back after being, alcohol free for a year I was like, you guys, don't worry. You can have alcohol in the room. I'm good. I'm good. I'll remove myself if I don't feel safe or whatever you guys can drink nobody. Drink the way that I was drinking. So, I realized that I was the one that was Hey, everybody, let's drink. Let's get all the wine. So anyway, I was the, 

Lindsey: I feel like Taylor Swift wrote a song about you, Kelly. 

Kelly: What's it called? 

Lindsey: I'm the problems s 

Kelly: It's true. And I had no clue. Like I was clueless. I thought everybody drank the way that I did. And this is not true. 

Tracey: Like showing up at people's toes with a handful of booze, right? What if you show up at your friend's house and they don't feel like drinking then, like, is, is that enabling second, 

Lindsey: it's not appropriate to [00:35:00] bring three bottles of wine to a baby shower

Okay, come on. Just kidding. But I would do, yeah, I don't know. I would do stuff like that. 

Tracey: I was thinking about this as we're talking about how, you get to a point where you think about that behavior, and you're embarrassed by it. There's time, like Mike said, in your twenties, you think it's funny and entertaining and whatnot. Part of me thinks that inevitably I would've got to the point where I felt like I'd outgrown it. even though, regardless of being with a non-drinker or not, I remember having like an out-body experience almost when I was just about to turn 40 and I was sitting in the backyard with my ex-slugging beers to put it very trashy. Like. Cause that's what it felt like. Mm-hmm. So, but I had like an out-body experience of looking. My life going, is this what my life is gonna be like? Really? I'm almost 40. Is this what I have to look forward to that I'm [00:36:00] just gonna be slugging beers with a bunch of dudes in the backyard? Like this is what my life has come to. So, I feel like for me, I would've just eventually I think, got to that point. And if I was with someone who was a drinker, and they didn't kind of come around or adapt that I probably would've outgrown them. 

Kelly: Hmm. 

Tracey: Yeah. I just, but I've always kind of been a strong person in that sense that I'm not afraid to do my own thing. I don't need to kind of follow the pack. Once I decide something for myself, I usually do it. 

Kelly: Mm-hmm. , I had one of those moments Trace sitting in my living room, in my drinking spot, I might have been hung over, not drinking at the time, but where we lived, we had a big living room window, and we lived in this neighborhood that was more like a park-like setting.

So, people came to our neighborhood to run. It's also part of the marathon route. So, it's a big area for people that don't live there to just come and spend time there. But I [00:37:00] remember sitting there in my chair, feeling like shit 40 pounds heavier than my normal weight that I had been my whole adult life because I had gotten to where I was at. And I was never a runner, but just seeing all these people outside my window active and I was like, what am I doing? Those are my people. Those are my people out there. And here I am sitting in here. Feeling like shit. And yeah, it was that like I don't belong here feeling. 

Tracey: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Lindsey: Wow. 

Kelly: Yeah. Must have been towards the end. I don't remember. 

Tracey: So yeah, I'd like to think that there's part of maturity or whatever that you come to, or you hope most people come to. Even going back to, as we've talked many times about being around drunk people. For me, I don't even think that that's about not drinking. I think it's about maturity. I'm just not at a point in my life where I necessarily wanna surround myself with people who are fall down drunks. I'm pushing [00:38:00] 50 looking at like, okay. I kind of look at it like, okay, how old are you guys? When are you gonna grow up? Type of thing. That's something you should have grown out of, fine drink or whatever, but that's sort of sloppiness you should have left behind a while ago. 

Lindsey: I just know what it's like to, to be that falling down, blacked out, sloppy, drunk person and it doesn't align with my goals for myself. Like I said, I was health conscious at the time. That's not something that somebody does when they're working on their health, so yeah, I think I definitely would've grown out of that whole situation cuz I wouldn't wanna surround myself with people like that, doing those things.

Tracey: Mm-hmm. 

Kelly: Yeah, I think I get. Moments. I'm not around really drunk people a lot. But I think I have those moments more; I see them as more of a reminder to myself. I was not that long ago at a bar yeah. For a band, like watching a band and we were on the dance [00:39:00] floor and dancing. It was really, really fun night packed dance floor. And there was a girl same age as us, maybe a little bit younger. And she's like, oh my God, I love your shirt. And, you know, like, just loud and like, you just kinda, I'm like, that was me. So, I, I suppose I could have been irritated by her, but I think I just choose to see it as like a reminder of okay, I don't do that anymore.

Tracey: Well, and I can't remember who it was, but one of our guests said that those are, I think it was Jamie actually that said, those are the people that you should have more empathy for. 

Kelly: That's right. 

Tracey: Because you have to and that he has more empathy for those people because they have to be internally struggling.

Lindsey: Mm-hmm. 

Tracey: to be drinking like that.

Kelly: I don't judge, I don't find that I judge them. It's just like, they're on a different part of their life journey than I am. I was there, so I, there's no way I could judge somebody like that cuz I was that person. I'm no better than them just cuz [00:40:00] I've quit, 

Tracey: no, a hundred percent. I feel the same. There's no judgment. That's why when I got in a conversation with my partner about that whole thing I was saying, I don't judge like it's, I was them at one point. Mm-hmm., same thing. It's not a judgment, it's just not how I wanna spend my time and it's about me.

Kelly: Mm-hmm., 

Tracey: it's not about them. It's about decisions I'm making for myself. It has nothing to do with judgment or whatever they're doing. I would never judge someone for a scenario that I know myself. I've been in numerous times. 

Mike: I don't know if somebody is, if somebody's drunk and said, I don't, don't know what they would say, but if they said something that I felt the opportunity was there to not call them out, but to make them aware with a comment, then I would, I know I would, I'd say, oh, you know what? Maybe you need to blah, blah, blah. I just know me, and I would be very direct. I don't give a shit anymore about what people think. It's, it's who I am. That's probably a part of the reason [00:41:00] why I drank for as long as I did and to the excess that I did when I'd go out, is because I wasn't myself like deep down myself. I was never come out and maybe I've got flaws, we all got flaws, but whatever. But this is just, directness. Maybe I'm learning about, hey, you gotta figure out how to not be so direct now, as Kelly says, the journey, if you will. 

Kelly: Well, but I think Mike, that's being direct. That doesn't have to come from a place of judgment. I think where that's coming from, when you're direct with somebody about that, I feel like what I know of you is that that would come from more of a place of caring about that person and what they do. It doesn't sound like you're judging them. 

Mike: Yeah, that's what I meant shaking my head about the judgment side. Maybe it could be perceived as judgment while you're judging me. Well, I don't think I'm judging you. I'm gonna think I'm observing you, and these are the observations that I find that, you asked you started this per se by making the comment and, you just kind of go by it. It's like what I was saying earlier [00:42:00] about when someone says, oh, you're a pussy, you're a quitter for blah, blah, blah, blah. And it's the same thing. Oh yeah, well, why are you going home and why are you still here? Or something? You are just. You could say something like that to put them on the spot and then they kind of shut up and yeah. Maybe they walk away and think maybe he's great. I dunno. 

Tracey: True. It's, you could plant a seed for sure. Yeah. That's say, yeah.

What do you guys think that people could do to try to recognize enabling behaviors or change them? I know there's some literature out there that kind of can identify an enabling behavior versus a helping behavior, right? Like I said with my stepbrother, if he needed something then we tried to get him directly what he needed opposed to giving him money.

Kelly: Right? 

Tracey: I think that's a way you can help someone instead of enabling them. 

Mike: I think you need to use you. Your instincts and your intuition because I think it's telling you in some capacities, what you're observing and what that [00:43:00] little voice in your head is telling you.

It's saying you think you're enabling them by blah, blah, blah. Then, start to really explore that and channel that and say, hey, maybe I need to start listening to that more, not only for the enabling part of things, but just for life in general. Trust that you're learning more about yourself. I think we just don't give ourselves enough credit to trust what our instincts are telling us. Like you guys said before, you learn that as you get older, I grew out of that phase, or I did this, or I did that. It's the same thing. It's like working out, get stronger by practicing it over and over again.

Tracey: I think part of the struggle with enabling is when I've been in situations where I felt like, okay, I'm kind of enabling this behavior. Part of it is that I'm really struggling with the fact that I know I can't help this person because they need to wanna help themselves 

Mike: walk away. You have to learn to walk away. Cause I think that's part of the enabling aspect of, well why did she leave? Why didn't she stay and do that or [00:44:00] do this? Walking away is I think a part of not enabling somebody. 

Kelly: I do wish that I had more people in my life or anybody in my life say something to me about my drinking and nobody did. So as somebody that was struggling, looking back and I do take full responsibility for my drinking I just sometimes wonder. If a friend or somebody had sat down with me and said, you get wasted a lot, you black out a lot. I dunno, I have no idea if my journey would be any different, if I would've maybe ignored it or whatever. I do wonder that sometimes if somebody that really cared about me, not just like while I was drunk or a stranger or anything, but if I was sober and probably hungover would be a good time to catch me and say like, really, is this really how you wanted to live this life? I wonder if I would've seen it sooner. You know? 

Tracey: That's a good point. That's a really good point. 

Kelly: Yeah. Mm-hmm., 

Lindsey: I can relate to that with Christmas Eves. [00:45:00] Mm-hmm. My mom's like, when my sister had to literally carry me into my place with my ex-spouse, mm-hmm. Nobody brought it up. When I saw them next, or like, and I felt like an asshole. I felt really embarrassed and so ashamed and I know that if anybody would've brought it up, that anxiety feeling like my face would just go red, I would get that rapid heartbeat. I would probably, I might even cry

Kelly: mm-hmm., me too. I

Lindsey: No one. Yeah. I know my mom it's like they don't wanna hurt you or make you feel bad, but you know. But I think at one time she was like, you're fine, you're fine. It's okay. 

, yeah. 

Tracey: That's enabling again, right? 

Kelly: That's enabling, yeah. Like what's wor That's right. What's better? You are feeling embarrassed and ashamed because somebody's calling you out on your own shit. Or you are living in that yourself. Just. Yeah, I lived in so much shame and self hatred, 

Mike: [00:46:00] there's, I think there's a way of going about it too, right? Mm-hmm., my brother-in-law never said anything to me derogatory or whatever, like it wasn't aggressive, like you're a drunk or anything like that. He just said, he's the one that kind of triggered that in my head. He said, you should consider it. You should consider giving it up and giving it a try and see how you feel, and it kind of planted the seed. Planted the seed, and then yeah, it, eventually it happened, and it was like I had to, it didn't happen. I didn't have to prove anything to him. But I remember I went there, and I think it was for my niece's birthday, and it would've been about a month after, and he was like, And I never really drank when I went there. But I told him, I said, hey, I haven't had a drink in a month. And he was like, that's awesome, man. That's great. Keep going, keep going. So, every time I'd go there, it then became a topic between just him and I briefly, how's it going? How's it going? And then it was like, oh, it's going well. That was it. Short and sweet. So nice. You're right. Maybe there is some I impactful Ness behind people you care about and yeah. It's a really good point, Kelly. 

Kelly: Yeah. Yeah. [00:47:00] I just like having the mess. Like, you know, at first, I thought, oh, I gotta shout it from the rooftops and tell everybody how amazing this, alcohol free is no hangover. But now I just, if anybody brings it up with me, I just say, if that's meant to happen for you, if you're meant to give it up at some point in your life, you'll know when.

Tracey: Mm-hmm. 

Kelly: and I'm here for you. 

Mike: You get tired. 

Kelly: Yes. 

Tracey: Yeah. I think we probably all had that experience now not drinking. Somebody approaching us. Mm-hmm. about it. Mm-hmm., you're right. 

Kelly: Yeah. I wanna be like, it's amazing you can do it. Oh my God. Just do it, do it, do it. You know? But no, it's not. 

Tracey: Well, that's not realistic or the case for everybody. Right. So again, that's, it goes back to, like Mike was saying, it's in your approach, but it's also giving people the time and space that it's going to be on their terms in their time. Yes. Right. When they're ready.

Kelly: Everybody is different, and everybody's got a different journey. Some people try and do not succeed but try again. Just [00:48:00] keep on trying. 

Tracey: That's probably one good takeaway to kind of close off. The conversation, Kel, is that Maybe don't be afraid to say something keep in mind your own boundaries, right? There's probably a way to say to someone, I don't wanna support this choice you're making for yourself.

Kelly: Right. 

Tracey: Because I see this, this, and this happening mm-hmm. And putting those boundaries in place to make sure that you're not supporting those bad habits 

Kelly: Right. Yeah. And it's coming from a place of love. What's your intention? It's coming from a place of love. And yeah. The person on the other end may not receive it so well. Mm-hmm. when it's said in that moment, they may be embarrassed, they may get defensive, but like Mike said, they're planting the seed, it's planting a seed and showing that you're there to support.

Tracey: Well, we also have to remember enabling compromises our own values. We're hurting ourselves by doing it as well. 

Mike: Well, yeah. It affects our [00:49:00] character, which is a direct reflection of how we feel about ourselves internally. For sure. That's a good point.

Kelly: very good. This is good conversation, you guys. And hopefully it helped somebody out there listening and we appreciate our listeners so, so much. Episodes Drop on Tuesdays. You can find us on Instagram, check our show notes. We've got a link to a Facebook community where you can keep in touch as well. And we'd also love to have you as a guest on our podcast, so please reach out. And that's it for tonight. everybody just keeps on laughing. Bye. 

Tracey: Okay, tonight guys s 

Lindsey: hi. 

Closing

Kelly: Thank you for listening. Please give us a five-star rating like and subscribe, share on social media, and tell your friends. We love getting your feedback and ideas of what you'd like to hear on upcoming episodes of the laugh life podcast. If you yourself are living alcohol free and want to share your story here, please reach out.